What do you open in 2nd seat?

[jonottawa]

Edit: Note that you're in 2nd seat

 

System is 2/1, 15-17 NT. Weak 2's (5-bad 10.) RHO passes and you're up.

 

If you think most experts would bid A, but you would bid B, that would be useful to know as well.

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sqjhkq5432dj5cq92]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

[TylerE]

2♥. Partner knows we are red at IMPs, and will push accordingly. This hand will almost certainly disappoint if he does.

[jonottawa]

2♥. Partner knows we are red at IMPs, ...

Does he?

[jdonn]

Yuck I pass. I would sooner open 2♥ than 1♥, but even for that I don't like my hand. It's the sort of hand that, if they catch me in 2♥X, can go for a 4 digit number when the opponents don't even have game.

[gwnn]

it's either 1♥ or 0♥. you have lots of quacks outside, you can't preempt on this. But you have no quick tricks so you can't open 1♥ either. I pass.

 

late edit: well sorry I'm just used to us being South. if I am White vs Red, I am closer to 1♥. now I'm undecided.

[maggieb]

I would open 2♥. I think most experts would open 2♥.

 

Edit: Oh I thought it was r/w, but it's actually w/r. OK, 1♥, and I expect most experts to open 2♥ or 1♥ depending on their agreements about how aggressively they preempt.

[jdonn]

Excellent, we have pass but prefers 2♥ to 1♥, pass but prefers 1♥ to 2♥, and either 2♥ or 1♥ as long as you don't pass. We are making progress.

[pooltuna]

2♥. Partner knows we are red at IMPs, and will push accordingly. This hand will almost certainly disappoint if he does.

actually not sure if you answered b4 the edit but you are actually NV

[hotShot]

2♥

[pooltuna]

Edit: Note that you're in 2nd seat

 

System is 2/1, 15-17 NT. Weak 2's (5-bad 10.) RHO passes and you're up.

 

If you think most experts would bid A, but you would bid B, that would be useful to know as well.

 

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sqjhkq5432dj5cq92]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

well now that we know that we are actually NV you want to maximize the pressure on the opps and if necessary sell out for a partscore as things may be breaking well for the opps

[gnasher]

1♥ but prefer pass to 2♥. I don't like all that stuff in the side-suits.

[awm]

I'd open 2♥. The "stuff" in the side suits is really pretty lousy stuff. I don't like passing with a six card suit to two of the top three honors, and this hand will be a huge disappointment to partner if I open it at the one level. If I was vulnerable against not, I could see passing because the heart spots are so lousy; I would never open 1♥ with this hand.

[655321]

1♥ always for me. Partner has played bridge before, he knows an opening bid (especially NV) is not a gold-plated promise to hold an excellent 13 HCP.

 

Also don't much like 2♥ with all the quacks outside.

[jdonn]

I have never used this as an argument before, but K&R = 9.65, and frankly that seems generous to me. I have played bridge before, and I know an opening bid is a gold plated promise to hold an opening hand!

[655321]

I have never used this as an argument before, but K&R = 9.65, and frankly that seems generous to me. I have played bridge before, and I know an opening bid is a gold plated promise to hold an opening hand!

LOL, OK I agree the hand is terrible, so although I would always open it I am not trying to make anyone change their mind if they wouldn't open.

 

Maybe this sounds silly, but I don't really agree with the bit about an opening bid being a promise to hold an opening hand! Opening the bidding is a Good Thing (whatever the vulnerability), it means we are already in the auction, have started to describe our hands, harder for the opponents, all the usual arguments etc etc, etc. And I definitely open lighter W/R than R/W, i.e. there are hands I would pass unless W/R, and I think this is normal. I guess many of these hands are not really 'opening hands' as such, but they are hands that (to me) make the risk/reward ratio worth opening them.

[Jlall]

I have played styles where this is a 1H opener, and styles where it's a pass. I've never played a style where it's a 2H bid and never would want to. I would open this 1H as long as my system/style permitted me to and partner wouldn't go nuts. If I didn't open aggressively I would pass.

 

I mean, it seems like this should be a question of "What style do you prefer to play in a 2/1 system, and what style do you think most experts play in a 2/1 system?" because basically I think that your style and what partner expects from you should determine what you do.

 

And FWIW you can prefer X while your partner prefers Y and that's perfectly fine, as long as you know that about each other.

 

Right now I prefer a style where 1H is possible, followed by pass, followed very far behind with 2H.

 

What kind of style would I expect most experts to play? Hard to say, in my experience very few play a style where you pass with this hand, and most people hate pass and consider it a 1 vs 2 problem. I used to live by that style before I discovered my love of aggressive openers though.

 

So I would expect it to be a tossup for most experts between 1H and 2H with very few passing. Most of my group of experts friends would consider it a routine 1H bid, so I might be biased in thinking that about 50 % would like 1H, 40 % would like 2H, and 10 % would like pass.

[benlessard]

If you want to adjust yourself with vulnerabilities. I suggest that when NV preempt are wider so your opening should be tighter and show defense. When vul its the opposite your preempts should be tighter and so its possible to open lighter especially when it come to ODR.

 

IMO our style is to have no gap between 1M and 2M so that when a passed hand overcall or balance at the 2/3 level hes showing a side suit.

 

P----(1D)------P------(2D)

??

 

2H = 5H+4S, 6H+4S or 5H + 5C

2S = 5S + 5C

X and pulling 2H to 2S should be 4S+6 clubs

 

 

P-----(3D)-----P------(P)

3H = 5/6H +4S

X = show both majors with usually better spades than hearts.

 

P------(1C)-------P--------(1S)

???

 

X = take out with values instead of shapes

1nt = take -out with shape

2C = natural

2D = 6D +4H

if you have D and spades its sad but you have to pass.

 

Non-vulnerable i really believe that its the better style.

 

1- It forced you to preempt first and ask questions later.

2 - You get in partscore battles in better shape.

3- some inference are there

 

The downside is when you are vulnerable and have a nice 5 C suit in a balanced semi balanced hand a hand too dangerous for a vulnerable preempt but strong enough to compete when the bidding die low.

 

As for a ODR POV its mostly a matter of style between

 

If your preempts have high OvsD Ratio (xx,xx,Axxxxx,Axx) and your opening could have very little defense (KQJxxx,Qxxx,QJ,x) at the end you wont be able to double them too often + sometimes you will defend instead of sacrificing)

 

If your opening show some defense & your preempts have high ODR than some hands you have to pass (gap between 1M and 2M wich imo is costly when non-vulnerable)

 

our style = opening show some defense + preempt are wide ranging in term of suit quality and defensive side cards

 

Tougher to defend against because preempt are more random in nature

Less inference for declarer when our side is on defense.

Its tougher for me to get it right when my partner made a preempt (when it come time to sac or not and for leads)

Doesnt fit well with LOB

You get nailed more often becausee your preempt are crappier

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Since we are green vs. red, the hand is too strong for a 2h opening bid

at this colors.

 

I voted Pass, but I may open 1H, ..., it depends, my p would open 1H, and

I would guess most other players would as well, I ommit "most other expert",

because I am not in a position to judge.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[MickyB]

Auto pass for me. The hand is crap and defensive. Yes, there are downsides to passing, but there are downsides to passing any random 9-count with a reasonable five-card suit - and that's not too far away from what I have.

[Codo]

Auto 1 Heart in my favourite 2/1 system, enough HCPS, no rebid problems.

 

If I would play a system where I need more for an opening (and this hand is real junk food...) I would open 2 ♥ despite all the quarrels about it.

[helene_t]

Agree with AWM.

 

Would have more sympathy for pass at MP but would still open 2♥. If vulnerable I would pass in 2nd seat.

[Fluffy]

intermediates suck, with ♥9 t would be a clear 2♥ for me. I think I would still bid 2♥ though.

 

Pass on my style is wrong, it prevents you to come in later as it would promise fit for partner's suit or something.

[Phil]

2♥. I suppose my age is showing :P

[jonottawa]

Thanks for the feedback. I opened 2♥. Opps made good aggressive decisions and went +300 and +5 IMPs. After the set, my pard expressed his opinion thusly:

 

I am a very aggressive preempter white vs red, I would open 2S with Q10xxxx-xx-xxx-xx at those colors, in fact white vs red I will open just about anything…if you do as well, then you can’t open the hand you did with 2H. I know it’s the worlds worst 11 count, but next time when you open 2H I am going to look and my 14-15 count with a heart void and wonder if I am supposed to bid 3NT here. I think we should stay within the range of (3)5-9, I agree your hand values to crap with the random Q’s, but your hand plays great in NT facing no fit and 15-16 balanced.

 

My reply:

 

Preempting on a 2 count in 2nd seat is a recipe for tears, you talk about missing 3N here but are happy with all the meltdowns that opening on a 2 count would cause. You have a 50% chance of being right (though pard may still misjudge later and send you for a number) and a 50% chance of hanging partner out to dry. Even if playing 5-9, that's a 2H bid. Will you miss a white game sometimes? Yeah, that's true anytime you play a 5/6 point range for a weak 2. Will you get to bad games or some other bad result opening 1H here? Absolutely. I'm aggressive 1st/3rd at these colors, undisciplined but 'normal' in 2nd. Always play me for a 'normal' weak 2 in 2nd seat. This hand qualifies (if my J5 of D were the T9 of D, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation, that's a pretty miniscule difference in valuation.)

[Phil]

Thanks for the feedback. I opened 2♥. Opps made good aggressive decisions and went +300 and +5 IMPs. After the set, my pard expressed his opinion thusly:

 

I am a very aggressive preempter white vs red, I would open 2S with Q10xxxx-xx-xxx-xx at those colors, in fact white vs red I will open just about anything…if you do as well, then you can’t open the hand you did with 2H. I know it’s the worlds worst 11 count, but next time when you open 2H I am going to look and my 14-15 count with a heart void and wonder if I am supposed to bid 3NT here. I think we should stay within the range of (3)5-9, I agree your hand values to crap with the random Q’s, but your hand plays great in NT facing no fit and 15-16 balanced.

 

My reply:

 

Preempting on a 2 count in 2nd seat is a recipe for tears, you talk about missing 3N here but are happy with all the meltdowns that opening on a 2 count would cause. You have a 50% chance of being right (though pard may still misjudge later and send you for a number) and a 50% chance of hanging partner out to dry. Even if playing 5-9, that's a 2H bid. Will you miss a white game sometimes? Yeah, that's true anytime you play a 5/6 point range for a weak 2. Will you get to bad games or some other bad result opening 1H here? Absolutely. I'm aggressive 1st/3rd at these colors, undisciplined but 'normal' in 2nd. Always play me for a 'normal' weak 2 in 2nd seat. This hand qualifies (if my J5 of D were the T9 of D, I don't think we'd even be having this conversation, that's a pretty miniscule difference in valuation.)

I hope this conversation occurred in the bar afterward and not at the table.

 

This type of post-morteming ATT makes my ears bleed.