luis Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Some posters asked about the overcalling system I'm using with my pd, the system is based in an original work from a local player and modificationsmade by him and my partnership. Basically:When they open 1x:Double is 15+ any (power doubles)1NT is a takeout double of their opening bid (11-14) Offshape is ok as long as you have 5332 or 4432 with 2 4 card suits outside the opening bid suit.Level overcall: Either one suited in the suit bid or a two suiter (can be canape) of the suit bid and the second highest suit (opening suit is eliminated)2NT: Any weak(ish) 5-5 two suiter.cue: Three suiter short to opener's suitJump overcalls: Weak Example of "level" overcallsIf they open 1c1d = diamonds or diamonds and spades 1h = hearts or hearts and diamonds1s = spades or spades and hearts After a level overcall the relay (the suit that overcaller denied) is used as a relay, overcaller indicates in his 2nd bid if he has a one-suited hand, a two suited hand in canape, or a two suited hand with the 1st suit longer. If available 1NT shows a balanced one suited hand (5332) Example: (1d) 1h : Hearts or hearts and clubs1s relayNow:1N = 5332 with hearts2c = Canape hearts < clubs2d = Hearts and clubs h>c2h = One suited with hearts A second relay is then used to find the exact distribution, then your favourite slam tools can be used to determine controls and location of controls. In some cases advancer will be interested in the suit that overcalled denied (the relay suit) in that case he bids the "cuebid" as an asking bid in the missing suit, the answers are:1st step: Minimum without support2nd step: Minimum with Support3rd step: Maximum without support4th step: Maximum without supportAfter this advancer can bid a relay to ask for shortness 1st step=no shortness, others= shortage up the line. After a 1NT overcall we use 2x = Natural NF, with maximum and support overcaller can raise3x = Inv with 5 card suit Cue: Asking bid1st step: 4432 odd suit = same color as declarer (if declarer opened 1s for example this shows 4-4 in hearts and diamonds since the odd suit is clubs)2nd step: 4432 odd suit = same range3rd step: 4432 odd suit = alternate4th step: 5332 suit = same color5th step: 5332 suit = same range5th step: 5332 suit = alternate Overcaller can choose between 1NT and a level overcall with 5332 depending on his strength, suit quality, intermediates, etc. Generally we recommend the level overcall showing the suit inmediately so 1NT is almost always a 4432 hand with 2 4 card suits outside the opening suit. After the power double:The 1st bid not NT available shows a negative. Others 9+ and stablish a GF situation.Continuations are natural. Overcaller usually uses DBL or a cue to show a hand with 19+ hcp and bids naturally with 15-18. Some Advantages:- Relays can be used to show exact distribution and explore best game/slam- 1NT can take quickly off your chest a hand with 13-14 points and 4432 shape evenwith a doubleton in "the other major" or similar. - Pd inmediately knows the combined HCP since overcalls and 1NT are limited and double is always 15+ I'm open to questions and comments and of course improvements :-) Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Do you use this or something similar on 2-level and higher as well, or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Do you use this or something similar on 2-level and higher as well, or not? Nope, we use the normal tools and weapons against 2x opening bids.Some soup against multi 2d (ala Dixon), Leb after 2x doubled etc. The overcalling system applies only to 1x opening bids by opps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 ~snip~1st step: Minimum without support2nd step: Minimum with Support3rd step: Maximum without support4th step: Maximum without supportAfter this advancer can bid a relay to ask for shortness 1st step=no shortness, others= shortage up the line.~snip~ Typo perhaps? 4th step "with" support I guess :( ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 ~snip~1st step: Minimum without support2nd step: Minimum with Support3rd step: Maximum without support4th step: Maximum without supportAfter this advancer can bid a relay to ask for shortness 1st step=no shortness, others= shortage up the line.~snip~ Typo perhaps? 4th step "with" support I guess :( ? Yes :-)I typed fast, you can find other typos/errors. Hope the general idea can be understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Ok, I think I understand this (quite nice!!), only one more question: what do you mean with level overcall? Is this also 1♦-2♣, or 1♠-2♦? Or is this just 1X-1Y? Level overcalls:1C ?1D = D or D-S1H = H or H-D1S = S or S-H 1D ?1H = H or H-C1S = S or S-H2C = C or C-S 1H ?1S = S or S-D2C = C or C-S2D = D or D-C 1S ?2C = C or C-H2D = D or D-C2H = H or H-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Yes exactly as you posted :-) After knowing if the hand is a one suited hand or a two suiter we are using the Viking club relays because we use Viking club but you can use Moscito or other structures to resolve a 6+-x-x-x hand for the one suited hands and a 5+-4+-x-x for the two suited hands. In case it's useful After a one suited hand is shown and relay:1st step: 6322 (relay asks 3 card suit)2nd step: 6331 (relay asks about singleton)3rd step: 7321 (relay asks about singleton)4th step: 7330 (relay asks about void)3NT shows 7-2-2-2 and if that's in the middle of steps they are moved. So 3NT is always the 7222 hand. After a 5+-4+ two suiter and relay:1st step: 6-4 hand or 7-4 hand (relay asks about rest: 1-2;2-1;0-3;3-0;1-1;0-2;2-0) 2nd step: 5-5 (relay asks same steps as before)3rd step: 54224th step: 54 with 1-3 in the rest5th step: 54 with 3-1 in the rest6th step: 6-5 hand Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Nice, nice, very nice! The new relay is again the suit which overcaller didn't promisse right? 'All' other is to play I guess here. If 1NT is not available, how do you show a 5332 distribution? 2NT? Or as singlesuiter? And one other thingy: how do you invite with support? First relay and then support or cuebid? Or somehow else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 It looks very nice, but how good is it for bridge ?Im sure you will bid slams better then normal overcallers, but slam after an overcall are rare, the question is what do you pay, and is it worth it, im sure you can answer this better then me, how does the system work for the partsoce battle which is usually the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Is this not a BSC? I've encountered two other couples playing 1NT as take-out, but I thought an overcall against a natural 1-in-a-suit has to show either a 4-card in a known suit or 13+ HCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 It looks very nice, but how good is it for bridge ?Im sure you will bid slams better then normal overcallers, but slam after an overcall are rare, the question is what do you pay, and is it worth it, im sure you can answer this better then me, how does the system work for the partsoce battle which is usually the case. Flame:Being able to find good slams is only a very minor advantage of the system, among the great things that happened in one hand we asked about controls to play 3s !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 The question is if partner overcalls a suit and you know he could have a canape with another suit will you be able to fight for the partscore as well as you could with the normal overcalling method, I think you probebly can, the point of always having the suit bid is a big adv which you couldnt servive without.I would have tried it if i my normal system was based on relay, but adding this to a non relay system seems a bit too much, i might offer this to friend who play relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 Flame, this has nothing to do with your normal bidding system! It's overcalling... It's like signaling: totally different part from the game :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 1, 2004 Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 You're wrong very wrong, my partner and i never played any relay system , this is not something you learn in 2 minutes, you got to practice and get an understadning, im guessing you need to play relays for years before you really understand how to use them properly. It doesnt make much sense to me to do all this work for just overcalls, i have other places at the system which i rather practice first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 You're wrong very wrong, my partner and i never played any relay system , this is not something you learn in 2 minutes, you got to practice and get an understadning, im guessing you need to play relays for years before you really understand how to use them properly. It doesnt make much sense to me to do all this work for just overcalls, i have other places at the system which i rather practice first. Flame: I think that learning relays and how to use them is actually easier than learning natural bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 I think so too, and honstly i would be happy to learn and play something like viking or moscito, but i just began a new partnership playing polish club, and we have many holes in the system, so its not tight for me, but again i would recommand it to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Ok, I have some hands which I don't know how to bid exactly: x = any card, so how to bid with weak hands, invitational hands,...? 1) bidding goes: (1♦)-2♣-pass-?[hv=s=sxxxhxxxxxdxxxxcx]133|100|[/hv] 2) same bidding,[hv=s=sxxxhxxxxxdxxxxcx]133|100|[/hv] 3) opener bids 1♦ or 1♥, and you have:[hv=s=sxxxhxxxxxdxxxxcx]133|100|[/hv]Do you really have to overcall 2♣?? And what if bidding goes:(1♥)-2♣-(3♥)-passpass-?Do you bid 3♠? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 My answers 1. pass2. pass3. 1spjust like with a natural system.As to the last question, this is exactly a what i was talking about when i asked how will it will work in the parscore battle, and yes i think the answer is to bid 3sp (if you started with 2c) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 x = any card, so how to bid with weak hands, invitational hands,...? I think you missed this bit Flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 x = any card, so how to bid with weak hands, invitational hands,...? I think you missed this bit Flame. Hey im not the one who was asked here, i was only guessing so dont have to give full answers ;) Anyway didnt understand the question, the quete "x = any card.." im not sure where did free take it from, it seems like he asks how to respond to overcall with weak or invitational hands, im guessing with weak hands you pass, also i am guessing that you can support with 3 cards (even tho parter can have only 4) at least to the 2 level, jump cue and 2nt are probably used to show 4 card support with mixed/inv+ , you can show the forth suit by cue bidding.And when you feel you cant do all that you just pass.The hardest case is probebly 3 card support with inv hand, and with this you will use the relay which can hurt sometimes when the opponents push with another competitve bid, partner will not know of our supprt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Actually one bid isnt define here, which probebly mean its "normal" but maybe it shouldnt be, this is the bid of the suit partner might have, like(1c) 1sp (p) 2hnot sure this bid should show a normal 2h , first there is the question of is this a real heart suit, and then also the question of hcp and how forcing this is (a normal 2h is contructive but not forcing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Since we're fighting partscores here, I think it's important to win that battle. When you miss a 5-3 or 4-4 ♠ fit because you have to bid 2m, then I think that's a BIG disadvantage. Although slambidding might be easy, we want to win the battle most of the time, and slams aren't that common anyway after an overcall. "x = any card" means that only the distribution is important, and the HCP a little. I was looking for some bugs in the system: First hand you might want to play 2♥ but you can't unless p doesn't have support. you might also miss 2♠ when p doesn't have support but a 5 card ♠. How do you find the best contract?? Second hand is a similar problem, but you want to play 2♠. Is that bid to play, or is it P/C? And how do you deal with invitational hands? What if you have a maxifit? Third hand is the problem hand you can have opposite the first one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 I agree with free, imo hands with 5 card major and 4 card minor should bid the major, with maybe an excption of good 4 and bad 5, but maybe its better to change the system so 2c cant have 4c and 5sp.Still i would pass those examples hands and hope for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted July 5, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 1) & 2) Pass or psyche up to you, they have game. The partscore doesn't matter 3) You can bid 2♣ and show a canape with spades later or you can bid 1♠ and treat the hand as a 5-2-3-3 hand. Up to you. If you don't want to show clubs, maybe you will lose a better club fit. Luis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 pass with 1 & 2, even when invitational??? that's weird imo... Awful in MP tourneys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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