Echognome Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 [hv=d=w&v=n&s=shakqjxxdatctxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP(1NT)* - 3♠ - (P) - ?[/hv]*15-17 Stick or twist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pass, maybe it makes on a heart lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 4♠, maybe it makes on a heart lead. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotShot Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Pass! And I would be closer to bid 4♠ than to switch to ♥ . If partners ♠ are as good as my ♥, this is likely to make and if they are worse than my ♥ they are more useful as trumps. Edited: jdonn is right of cause. Edited November 16, 2009 by hotShot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pass! And in white I would be closer to bid 4♠ than to switch to ♥ . If partners ♠ are as good as my ♥, this is likely to make and if they are worse than my ♥ they are more useful as trumps. I'm confused, you are passing vul against not, but if you were not vul you would raise? Isn't that totally backwards since the idea of raising it to make, not as a save? Partner has a better hand for this bid vul than he does not vul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 4♠. Even if it goes down, they can't double this. Assuming pard is sane, our RHO is broke and he's the only one that could double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 [hv=d=w&v=n&s=shakqjxxdatctxxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP(1NT)* - 3♠ - (P) - ?[/hv]*15-17 Stick or twist? definitely stick it to him because he shouldn't be twistin' in the wind at these colors 4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pass, maybe it makes on a heart lead. to pass you are playing with too many players who do not respect the colors. I suggest you construct an acceptable second seat 3♠ bid for yourself and then compare it opposite your (the OP's) holding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pass, maybe it makes on a heart lead. to pass you are playing with too many players who do not respect the colors. I suggest you construct an acceptable second seat 3♠ bid for yourself and then compare it opposite your (the OP's) holding KQJxxxx-xxxxxx OK, maybe it's a little too pessimistic, he probably just needs a doubleton club or a non-club lead to make 4♠. Yes, 4♠ it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 KQJxxxx-xxxxxx OK, maybe it's a little too pessimistic, he probably just needs a doubleton club or a non-club lead to make 4♠. Yes, 4♠ it is. 4♠ is still very poor opposite KQJxxxx x xxx xx. After a diamond lead or switch, you will need hearts 3-3, spades 3-3, and no trump promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 KQJxxxx and out is a 3S bid red/white over 1N? Is weak jump overcall even standard over 1N red/white? Genuinely asking, I thought it was usually played as intermediate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 Pass, and glp. With kind regardsMarlowe PS: Did not realize, we are red vs. green, ..., 4S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) KQJxxxx and out is a 3S bid red/white over 1N? Is weak jump overcall even standard over 1N red/white? Genuinely asking, I thought it was usually played as intermediate. I think that at any vulnerability the objective should be preemption. Even at adverse, a hand that wants to invite game must be even rarer than one that wants to preempt. That doesn't, however, mean that it should be as weak as KQJxxxx x xx xxx. I suspect that faced with that hand I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation, at least at IMPs. I wouldn't do it at matchpoints though. If this is on the cusp for me, I suppose that means it's a normal 2♠ for most of the world. Edited November 17, 2009 by gnasher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchTsch Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 4♠ If pard is fooling around with his 3♠ vul vs. nonvul i will find another one <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill1157 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Pass, maybe it makes on a heart lead. to pass you are playing with too many players who do not respect the colors. I suggest you construct an acceptable second seat 3♠ bid for yourself and then compare it opposite your (the OP's) holding KQJxxxx-xxxxxx OK, maybe it's a little too pessimistic, he probably just needs a doubleton club or a non-club lead to make 4♠. Yes, 4♠ it is. that hand is a 2♠ opener vulnerable vs not. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 On the record for 4♠. I have not been convinced of the arguments for 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Pass, maybe it makes on a heart lead. to pass you are playing with too many players who do not respect the colors. I suggest you construct an acceptable second seat 3♠ bid for yourself and then compare it opposite your (the OP's) holding KQJxxxx-xxxxxx OK, maybe it's a little too pessimistic, he probably just needs a doubleton club or a non-club lead to make 4♠. Yes, 4♠ it is. that hand is a 2♠ opener vulnerable vs not. Bill You might be surprised what we pre-empt with in the UK (add a minor Q to Helene's hand and it's a WTP 3♠ for me). Let's just say you don't want to see some of my pre-empt suits when the vul is reversed <_< . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 In Mumbai, Shogi opened 3♣ playing against a pair of internationals. They asked me if it was a Dutch or an English preempt. I said it was quite sound for Dutch standards. Shogi turned out to have 11 points. One opp said he couldn't believe Shogi is Dutch, he has never seen a Dutch player preempt with more than 5 points. OK, points schmoints of course, but that was how the conversation went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 On the record for 4♠. I have not been convinced of the arguments for 4♥. Has anyone made any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 On the record for 4♠. I have not been convinced of the arguments for 4♥. Has anyone made any? I'll make the case. Suppose partner has a few hearts and his spades aren't as great as we all think. Say he has KQT9xxx Txx Kx x. Partner with great spades and a singleton/void heart is welcome to bring it back to 4♠ (which happened at the table). If his suit is self supporting, he knows where to play. So why not give him the option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 that hand is a 2♠ opener vulnerable vs not. Bill possibly so, but it will be impossible to open 2♠ when RHO just opened 1N in front of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 On the record for 4♠. I have not been convinced of the arguments for 4♥. Has anyone made any? I'll make the case. Suppose partner has a few hearts and his spades aren't as great as we all think. Say he has KQT9xxx Txx Kx x. Partner with great spades and a singleton/void heart is welcome to bring it back to 4♠ (which happened at the table). If his suit is self supporting, he knows where to play. So why not give him the option? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 On the record for 4♠. I have not been convinced of the arguments for 4♥. Has anyone made any? I'll make the case. Suppose partner has a few hearts and his spades aren't as great as we all think. Say he has KQT9xxx Txx Kx x. Partner with great spades and a singleton/void heart is welcome to bring it back to 4♠ (which happened at the table). If his suit is self supporting, he knows where to play. So why not give him the option? Seriously? Hard for me to now say "Ha ha ha. Just kidding!" isn't it? I was just figuring that partner may be able to judge whether his suit is playable or not? Maybe he has AJ9xxxx xxx xxx A or something? Maybe I'm kidding myself and I should have just bid 4♠. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I hope partner does not have AJ9xxxx xxx xxx A! And if you remove a red card, I would hope he would not bid 3S with that hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 KQJxxxx and out is a 3S bid red/white over 1N? Is weak jump overcall even standard over 1N red/white? Genuinely asking, I thought it was usually played as intermediate. I think that at any vulnerability the objective should be preemption. Even at adverse, a hand that wants to invite game must be even rarer than one that wants to preempt. That doesn't, however, mean that it should be as weak as KQJxxxx x xx xxx. I suspect that faced with that hand I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation, at least at IMPs. I wouldn't do it at matchpoints though. If this is on the cusp for me, I suppose that means it's a normal 2♠ for most of the world. Sure I agree, but if the hand required to preempt is so strong in playing strength that it ends up giving you good game chances, I think it could be defined as intermediate. Something like AQJTxxxx x KJxx x looks like a 3S bid to me, whether or not the main goal is to preempt them or to find a save or to find a game I wouldn't call this a weak jump overcall. With hands like the ones posted which look like classical opening preempts, I would view it as too dangerous to get in there (I mean honestly KQJ seventh and out seems suicidal to me red/white). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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