Settle a discussion

[Orla]

This hand came up in our bridge club on Friday. Later a few of us sat down together and discussed the bidding.

 

Holding

♠ K D 2

♥ K T 5 3 2

♦ A J 7 4

♣ T

 

 

Partner

♠ A J T 8 7

♥ A D 9 6 4

♦ Void

♣ K 9 4

 

I opened 1♥

 

My partner bid 4♦. I bid 4♥ (thinking my values in ♦ were worthless). Someone suggested I bid 4♠ after 4♦

 

Later, we came to the conclusion that maybe Jacoby would be the better bid - leaving us more room to investigate the hand.

 

What do you think responder should bid after 1♥?

 

Edit: Sorry the D = Q. Arrggghh I wrote the hand down in my club and had a brain oops when I posted.

[helene_t]

From your (North's) perspective I think slam would be good if p has 3 aces, and reasonable with two aces and ♥Q. You can ask for keycards if you are interested in slam. Alternatively just sign off in 4♥, considering that p probably doesn't have three aces, that slam may not make with two aces and the queen, and that the 5-level won't be safe if p has less than that. I don't see the point in bidding 4♠ over the splinter.

 

I think the south hand is too good for a splinter.

[peachy]

Splinter with responder hand is fine, just decide after hearing 1H opening from partner that "I am first splintering, then making a move toward slam". The responding hand has all side suits controlled first or second round, and MORE than adequate trumps length and quality. Opener has 8HCP after the diamond values are discounted, so he should just bid 4H.

 

If agreed style prohibits splintering with this, you are defaulted to first responding 1S.

 

Jacoby 2NT should not be used unless it is agreed with partner that one can hold a singleton in the J2NT response. Normally J2NT shows a balanced GF with 4+ card support.

[aguahombre]

bad post deleted

[pooltuna]

I think slam would be good if p has 3 aces, and reasonable with two aces and ♥Q. You can ask for keycards if you are interested in slam. Alternatively just sign off in 4♥, considering thatr p probably doesn't have three aces, that slam may not make with two aces and the queen, and that the 5-level won't be safe if p has less than that. I don't see the point in bidding 4♠ over the splinter.

 

I think the south hand is too good for a splinter.

I would rather bid 6♥ than splinter but given the splinter you cannot pass 4♥. I suspect if you ran a simul with the South hand unchanging while giving North an opening 1♥ hand slam will make 6 well over 50% of the time.

[hotShot]

What else but a slam invitation can a 4♦ splinter be?

If you want to be in 4♥ you can bid 4♥.

The 4♥ response to the splinter shows a minimum hand with no extras and therefor no interest in a slam try.

I think that evaluation of openers hand is wrong. The only ♦ value openers land loses is the ♦J. Even if 4♦ would by agreement always be a void and could not be a single, the Ace will still be useful. The ♣ single is a good asset.

So I think opener should investigate slam.

 

I'm not sure that partner should invite though...

[nigel_k]

It's hard to bid if the splinter has a wide range, especially after 1♥-4♦ as there is no room to investigate below game. North is probably safe at the five level if they make another move but on a bad day partner could have something like Jxxx Axxx x KQJx. I would definitely try again with South after the signoff though.

 

If you want a simple way to limit your splinters, use 1♥-3♠ as any splinter with 10-13 HCP (3NT then asks) and 1♥-3NT/4♣/4♦ as a 14+ HCP splinter with 3NT showing spade shortage. Do a similar thing one step higher after a 1♠ opening.

[Winstonm]

I think the splinter is O.K.

 

If I am reading these holdings right, is this such a great slam? I can't handle a 3-0 heart break and will have to find the spade Queen, no?

 

I think how so-so this slam is shows why it is hard to reach. If opener had the AJxx of clubs instead of diamonds the slam would have been reached and would have been a good slam to bid.

[pooltuna]

I think the splinter is O.K.

 

If I am reading these holdings right, is this such a great slam? I can't handle a 3-0 heart break and will have to find the spade Queen, no?

 

I think how so-so this slam is shows why it is hard to reach. If opener had the AJxx of clubs instead of diamonds the slam would have been reached and would have been a good slam to bid.

yep you're reading it wrong as D=queen in whatever deck they are using(I would guess anywhere they speak French)

[Winstonm]

I think the splinter is O.K.

 

If I am reading these holdings right, is this such a great slam?  I can't handle a 3-0 heart break and will have to find the spade Queen, no?

 

I think how so-so this slam is shows why it is hard to reach.  If opener had the AJxx of clubs instead of diamonds the slam would have been reached and would have been a good slam to bid.

yep you're reading it wrong as D=queen in whatever deck they are using(I would guess anywhere they speak French)

O,K. thanks.

 

As such, the opening hand is worth a move toward slam IMO.

[jdonn]

I think north bid correctly. South should start with their lower forcing raise. If he insists on splintering he should take another call over the signoff, though that is a bit risky.

[Jlall]

South is way too good to splinter and pass a sign off.

[EricK]

Personally I would try to find out what partner had in ♠ as that will help towards making the slam decision. Ideally, we'd be playing fit jumps here :P. But since we aren't I'll bid 2♠ as a SJS. If we're not playing that either, I'll bid 1♠

[TylerE]

Splinter is fine, but S should re-cue 5♦ over a signoff.

[Codo]

I hate the splinter: You waste space, you do not describe your hand tp partner (too strong) and you are 90 % sure that your bid will not help your latter bidding, because you are too strong to pass 4 Heart anyway.

 

So 2 NT is hte best, followed by 1 Spade, 4 Nt and 6 HEart...

[kenrexford]

Thinking out loud...

 

I tend to like 2/1 GF sequences when a splinter or Jacoby 2NT is imperfect. Both are terribly imperfect in this situation, so, let's try it out. I usually anticipate a likely auction in making a decision

 

1♥-2♣(GF, natural or support)

2♦-2♥(trumps set)

2♠(spade control)-???

 

This likely start is predictable. However, Responder will not (in my methods) have an easy next call. 2NT would deny two of the top three honors, so Responder will bypass 2NT. 3♣ would show two of the top three clubs, so that's no good -- must bypass that. No diamond card, so must bypass 3♦. So, the likely next call is 3♥ -- no cues below 3♥, but two of the top three hearts. This is a messy start. So, as that sequence is likely and predictable, 2♣ seems to bne a bad start (this time).

 

4♦ seems horribly wrong, IMO. Responder will never be able to show what he has, and taking control will be difficult.

 

Strangely, my next quick thought is 1♠. I hate auctions that start this way, especially with a void in diamonds. The predicted likely sequence will be what we get -- 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣. If I next get a 3♠ call (which I do), the auction really gets messy.

 

So, I end up with jacoby 2NT, despite my dislike for that call.

 

In my methods here, Opener will bid 3♣ to show a non-minimum with a splinter (3♠ would show a splinter and weak). After 3♦, his 3NT call (stiff club) will also tell me that he does not have 5-5 in hearts and diamonds, or 6-4 with hearts and spades, as he would have other options with those holdings.

 

At this point, I want to know more about his spade suit than his hearts. If he has the stiff club ace, I can check on that later. so, I'll bid 4♦. If partner signs off at 4♥, as he will with this hand (having already shown extras), I'll bid 4♠. An immediate 4♠ would have been exclusion. a delayed 4♠ for me is RKCB but with partner showing the spade keys. Kind of like 6KCB. With the diamond Ace, spade King, spade queen, and heart King, partner bids either 5♥ (if one version) or 4NT (another version), and the small slam is bid. alternatively, in partnerships where 4♠ is just a cue, partner cues 4NT (missing cue -- spades) and we end up in 6♥ ultimately.

[ONEferBRID]

This hand came up in our bridge club on Friday. Later a few of us sat down together and discussed the bidding.

 

Holding

♠ K Q 2

♥ K T 5 3 2

♦ A J 7 4

♣ T

 

 

Partner

♠ A J T 8 7

♥ A Q 9 6 4

♦ Void

♣ K 9 4

 

I opened 1♥

 

My partner bid 4♦.  I bid 4♥ (thinking my values in ♦ were worthless). Someone suggested I bid 4♠ after 4♦

 

Later, we came to the conclusion that maybe Jacoby would be the better bid - leaving us more room to investigate the hand.

 

What do you think responder should bid after 1♥?

1) Responder is too strong for a splinter. They are reserved for minimum GF responses ( ~ 11 hcp ) -- one reason because of the preemptive effect on opps.

 

2) I've never understood the "rule" to only use Jac2NT with balanced hands.

 

2a) shortage-opposite-shortage has great trick taking potential .

2b) Responder's extra trump will translate into at least 2 extra ruffing tricks.

 

However, I don't know if Opener has shortage, and if he does the odds are it is Spades.

 

3) Responder could bid his own suit first ( a source of tricks thing ), but then you have to go thru either NMF or 4th suit forcing before showing Hts -- cumbersome at best.

 

4) What do you use the 1H -2Sjump as ?

Another thinker ( like Ken ) had suggested it be used for a hand such as this--

a fit-showing-jump.

1H - 2S

3C(cue) - 3D( cue )

4NT - 5NT( even[0 or 2 ] + void, must be Diam)

6H

[Fluffy]

North missjudged his hand, but that's not the point, The question is if south should start with 4♦ or not, and IMO he must. But reopen later.

 

Take it easy, all you need to give partner is ♠Q and you already have chances on making slam!

[aguahombre]

1) Responder is too strong for a splinter.  They are reserved for minimum GF responses ( ~ 11 hcp ) -- one reason because of the preemptive effect on opps.

 

2a) shortage-opposite-shortage has great trick taking potential .

2b) Responder's extra trump will translate into at least 2 extra ruffing tricks.

 

3) Responder could bid his own suit first ( a source of tricks thing ), but then you have to go thru either NMF or 4th suit forcing before showing Hts -- cumbersome at best.

 

4) What do you use the 1H -2Sjump as ?

Another thinker ( like Ken ) had suggested it be used for a hand such as this--

a fit-showing-jump.

2a) unless it is the same shortage :o

4) Yep. 1H-2S, SJS --even if either a one suiter or fit showing-- would work well here. Opener can cue 3D not caring which it is, and responder can clarify cheaply with 3H. After that, 6H is a roll.

3) Yep. 1H-1S often begins confusion and torture. that is why an earlier string suggested 1C-2D and 1H-2S be used as slammish one suiter OR slammish two-suiter fit showing.

[mikeh]

Interesting vote distribution so far...most do not like either 4♦ or J2N, and I agree, very strongly.

 

A splinter in a void is generally a bad idea, since partner, if lacking the Ace, will think he has a sure loser in that suit, and will thus be inclined to be negative on slam potential unless very strong.

 

In addition, the South hand is far too strong to be comfortable splintering and passing game, but what if opener held Qx KJxxx AKx xxx as one example.

 

J2N is horrible, in my opinion. Sure, it may work if partner shows short spades, for example, but if he doesn't....where are you?

 

I really don't understand the urge to immediately and unilaterally take control while preempting the auction. We have, as South, a strong but complex hand.

 

So why not slow this down?

 

A simple 1♠ response is natural, and forcing one-round. It has the profound advantage of later ensuring that partner will LOVE Kx of spades, as one example, and be worried with xxx.

 

We can later force. Yes, some sequences may become bulky...but we will already have more information by that time than we have at round one, and we will have told partner that his spade holding is relevant.

 

imo, most players bid too fast...not in terms of how long they think but in terms of how rapidly they consume their own bidding space.

 

BTW, if one played a sjs, then I would use that gadget here..... especially if one used the popular style that the sjs promises either a very good suit or a decent suit plus a good fit. Note that opener is morally certain, looking at KQx spades, that responder likes hearts...opener has an awesome hand using that style. yes, the sjs is a space-consuming bid, but it is better than either J2n or the splinter. It is better than J2N because it provides useful info rather than unilaterally assuming captaincy, and it is better than the splinter because the splinter takes up too much space and will often leave responder not knowing what to do next.

[jdonn]

Mike I haven't said yet nice to have you back!

 

I agree the only "good" way to bid the hand is a strong jump shift to 2♠, followed by something like 4♦ to show a void. That is probably the only auction on which I'd be somewhat comfortable passing partner in 4♥.

 

But I'm really not a fan of responding 1♠. Not only do some auctions become bulky as you say (in fact you may not even support hearts below the 4 level) but you can never show support this good. Your partner is likely to have Kxxxx or KJxxx of trumps, which he will always hate opposite what he thinks is three card support.

 

If your goal is to get information about partner's hand then I really think you should start with 2NT. If your goal is to give information about your hand then ok, splinter and bid again. But I think it's imperitive to support right away.

[kenrexford]

We all agree!

 

Everyone thinks that the four options (yes, I said FOUR) all suck!

 

1. Jacoby 2NT? Sucks

2. Splinter? Sucks

3. 1♠? Sucks

4. 2♣ (my usualy default)? Sucks bad (this time)

 

Of course, people who don't play SJS say that SJS looks great. Actually, I think SJS probably sucks too.

 

1♥-P-2♠-P-3♠ is the start. You want to get back to hearts. How????

 

So...

 

5. SJS? Sucks

 

Maybe this is one of those hands where the old-timers' methods work best.

 

My new favorite auction:

 

1♥-P-6♥. You lead!

[jdonn]

Of course, people who don't play SJS say that SJS looks great. Actually, I think SJS probably sucks too.

 

1♥-P-2♠-P-3♠ is the start. You want to get back to hearts. How????

The way they are played in southern California, opener bids the next step on almost all hands as a default. So they would bid:

 

1♥ - 2♠ -

2NT - 4♦ -

 

2♠: SJS

2NT: Default bid (relay?)

4♦: 5+ spades, 4+ hearts, diamond void.

 

Looks good to me!

[aguahombre]

yep, if using SJS you want to stay out of partner's way to allow him to complete describing why he jump shifted. the 2NT auto is one way. But opener does not get to rebid at or above his opening bid suit in any case.

[ONEferBRID]

Just thinking out loud here also.

I think I'll try Ken's 2C! also ...2/1 GF where a " splinter or Jac2Nt may be imperfect". But I'll use it with my "homegrown scheme" for 1H openers designed to show Opener with a minimum open or "extras" ( 15,16+) .... with or without a 4 card Sp suit.

 

My method would not be as stringent as his for bids after the 2S cuebid ...

and Responder will be able to get in a Spade cue at the 3-level.... which will allow

Opener to go key card knowing his Sp KQ must be golden as long as Responder's shortage ( void ) isn't in Sp:

 

Opener

♠ K Q 2

♥ K T 5 3 2

♦ A J 7 4

♣ T

 

 

Responder

♠ A J T 8 7

♥ A Q 9 6 4

♦ Void

♣ K 9 4

 

1H - 2C! GF ( Clubs and/or Ht support )

2D! - 2H

2S ( courtesy cue ) - 3C ( cue )

3D ( cue ) - 3S ( cue )

4NT ( RKC for Hts ) - 5NT ( even, 0 or 2 + void somewhere )

6H

 

Where

2D! = minimum open; natural, 4+cards Diam, denies 4 cards Sp

( other replies to show "extras" with no 4s or

min or extras w/4s )