UI - Directors Ruling

[badderzboy]

Playing at my club, the following happened ( both Vul) and although I'm still a relative beginner I'm interested in directing at some point so what should happen here...

 

My partner opens a Weak 2 Hearts (alerted but not asked what it meant) and RHO bid 2NT ( not alerted) therefore assumed to be 16-18 balanced o'call (ACOL bidding).

 

Assuming strong and holding 5 Hearts to the 10 and AQxx ♠ and Ax ♣and xx ♦ in I jumped to 4 ♥ . Now LHO bids 4NT at which point RHO says I don;t know what 4NT means but I better alert it without prompting by either my partner or I! (UI to her partner) and bids 5 ♦ ( holding 1 ace as well lol) not alerted by here partner - all passed...

 

Before I make my lead RHO says I should tell you that 2NT was unusual 2NT with no explanation of range etc.

 

The hand itself - 4 makes and 5 goes down only on A♠ lead as partner holds K ♣and LHO has AK ♥ allowing ♠ to be discarded...

 

There seems to be a lot of UI in this auction and actions - what is the correct action by a director?

 

(i) 2NT not alerted - does LHO assume strong therefore 4NT was quantitive?

 

(ii) The 4♥ bid was influenced by the 2NT being strong as my AQ sits over the presumed K ♠ and I can capture K ♣ with the Ace...

 

Over unusual 2NT I may X first and then 4H! and also lead A ♠ over 5♦ before the Heart next...

 

(iii) 4NT comment by RHO tells LHO that the repsonse is not conventional etc and they've messed up and so passes the 5 ♦ bid as it wasn't a conventional response to what LHO thought it meant - if ace asking or quantitive then he cannot pass 5 ♦ as he cannot know they have a ♦ fit if partner says nothing !!!

 

How would u rule in this case?

 

TIA

 

Steve

[bearmum]

Playing at my club, the following happened ( both Vul) and although I'm still a relative beginner I'm interested in directing at some point so what should happen here...

 

My partner opens a Weak 2 Hearts (alerted but not asked what it meant) and RHO bid 2NT ( not alerted) therefore assumed to be 16-18 balanced o'call (ACOL bidding).

 

Assuming strong and holding 5 Hearts to the 10 and AQxx ♠ and Ax ♣and xx ♦ in  I jumped to 4 ♥ . Now LHO bids 4NT at which point RHO says I don;t know what 4NT means but I better alert it without prompting by either my partner or I! (UI to her partner) and bids 5 ♦ ( holding 1 ace as well lol) not alerted by here partner - all passed...

 

Before I make my lead RHO says I should tell you that 2NT was unusual 2NT with no explanation of range etc.

 

The hand itself - 4  makes and 5  goes down only on A♠  lead as partner holds K  ♣and LHO has AK ♥ allowing  ♠ to be discarded...

 

There seems to be a lot of UI in this auction and actions - what is the correct action by a director?

 

(i) 2NT not alerted - does LHO assume strong therefore 4NT was quantitive?

 

(ii) The 4♥ bid was influenced by the 2NT being strong as my AQ sits over the presumed K ♠ and I can capture K ♣ with the Ace...

 

Over unusual 2NT I may X first and then 4H! and also lead A ♠ over 5♦ before the Heart next...

 

(iii) 4NT comment by RHO tells LHO that the repsonse is not conventional etc and they've messed up and so passes the 5 ♦  bid as it wasn't a conventional response to what LHO thought it meant - if ace asking or quantitive then he cannot pass 5 ♦ as he cannot know they have a ♦ fit if partner says nothing !!!

 

How would u rule in this case?

 

TIA

 

Steve

OK first - playing ACOL -- 2H should NOT have to be alerted (IN f2f play) because 2H IS a H suit --- and opps should have been told WHAT your 2 bids were :P

 

YOU cannot ASSUME that the 2NT (even if NOT alerted ) was strong -------- so IMHO ANYTHING that happened after that MIGHT have been a result of you assuming (without asking) what the 2NT meant :ph34r:

 

It would have been more instructive ( to me at least :( ) if you had posted the hands for ALL players :)

 

Having said that ----in f2f (as in 'local' clubs) the director is the one who KNOWS the rules :o so I really believe it's counterproductive to ask in this forum if the ruling was correct (ESPECIALLY without posting ALL the hands)

 

 

HOWEVER I believe IF you are a "relative" beginner you MAYBE should not aspire to be a director before you can't answer your own question --- DIRECTORS in f2f bridge should be REALLY experienced players B) {BTW I have been playing bridge at a club for MORE than 35 years and I STILL don't think I can know the rules well enough to direct a game at local club}

[badderzboy]

Thx Bearmum for your comments,

 

I can the high cards :-

 

 

N

♠xxx

♥QJxxxx

♦ xx

♣ Kx

 

[hv=d=n&v=a&w=skjxxhakdkjxcqxxx&e=sxxhdaqxxxxcjxxxx]266|100|[/hv]

 

S

♠AQxx

♥10xxxx

♦ xx

♣ Ax

 

A few comments,

 

(i) weak 2H should be alerted in UK - it is a non standard ACOL bid ( 2H is normally 8 playing tricks) although natural.

 

(ii) All conventional bids must be alerted in UK even Stayman must be alerted here so if 2NT is conventional and not alerted we are potentially damaged by no alert but yes I could ask as you rightly point out, it must be alerted in UK- hence I can assume it is a natural bid and ACOL std bid is 16/18 pts balanced with Heart stop...

 

(iii) I think this is a tough call for any director to make I'm interested in my learned posters what type of adjustments if any can / should be made and where the infractions are.

 

It was also a friendly club night and I have no intention of posting the directors decision here or indeed criticising anyone but interested in what rules apply where?

 

TIA

 

Steve

[paulg]

I am also not a director but some of friends are :ph34r:

 

Firstly, unauthorised information (UI) is not sufficient for an offence to have occurred. It is only when UI may have influenced an action that there may be a case for an adjustment.

 

Going through the auction:

 

North's 2♥ was correctly alerted.

 

East's unusual 2NT overcall was not alerted - this is either misinformation (MI) - if it is their system bid - or a misbid. If it is MI then there may be cause for an adjustment.

 

West's 4NT was alerted, but the only UI is East's comment that he does not know what 4NT means.

 

East's 5♦ was not alerted, possibly due to his comment. I will note that the Blackwood response is alertable in the UK. However his comment about what is happening does not necessarily suggest an unusual 2NT bid.

 

As a director I would ask East-West what 2NT means in their system. I would also ask West what 4NT means. Without these answers I cannot and would not make a ruling.

 

West's pass is strange and suggests that 2NT is perhaps the minors. I cannot believe that West assumes it was natural given his pass of 5♦.

 

In terms of the play, East has correctly informed you about the lack of alert for 2NT. Even at a tournament I'm sure most players would just say that it is unusual ... if you need to know the point range then you can ask at this point.

 

So, in terms of playing the contract, North-South have not been damaged.

 

If it is the case that 2NT is indeed unusual there is MI. However the question then is whether you have been damaged? What would you bid if 2NT was unusual ... I'd ask you and probably expect you to say 4♥ too :o .. so I'd need to be convinced that things would actually have changed!

 

Sometimes the opposition commit infractions and get lucky. This may well be such a case.

 

Finally, I'll say that bidding an unusual 2NT over a weak 2 opener is something I see beginners doing all the time on BBO - please STOP doing it - 2NT here should be strong and balanced!

[Cascade]

OK first - playing ACOL -- 2H should NOT have to be alerted  (IN f2f play) because 2H IS a H suit --- and opps should have been told WHAT your 2 bids were  :o

The alert rules vary substantially in different parts of the world so you should never assume that what is standard practice is normal in some other jurisdiction.

 

As an aside you certainly shouldn't assume this for online play. Alerting is so easy online that IMO you should "over-alert" to make sure things are easy for your opponents.

 

YOU cannot ASSUME that the 2NT (even if NOT alerted ) was strong -------- so IMHO ANYTHING that happened after that MIGHT have been a result of you assuming (without asking) what the 2NT meant  :ph34r:

 

The purpose of an alert is so that in many common situations you do not need to ask questions - although occasionally there can be traps with this when a bid is alerted and some common treatment is assumed when in fact another uncommon treatment is being used.

 

Nevertheless when a bid is not alerted you have the right to assume that is natural (or in some cases the standard artificial bid e.g. where I play 2♣ Stayman is not alerted but natural 2♣ or some other treatment would be - if 2♣ over 1NT is not alerted I can assume it is Stayman). In this case I think that it is valid to assume that 2NT is natural and strong - roughly somewhere in the range 15-19.

 

HOWEVER I believe IF you are a "relative" beginner you MAYBE should not aspire to be a director before you can't answer your own question --- DIRECTORS  in f2f bridge should be REALLY experienced players  :P {BTW I have been playing bridge at a club for MORE than 35 years  and I STILL don't think I can know the rules well enough to direct a game at local club}

 

We have an interesting counter-example of this locally. The most experienced local director began directing before he ever learnt to play bridge. He took it on as an extra job when he was a young man. You might think this an impossible task or maybe that he might just be able to get by in a club game however this director twice directed the national pairs championships before ever pulling a card of his own at the bridge table.

 

When he subsequently learned to play this created a number of amusing situations. He told me how he when he was just out of the beginners class and playing against someone who did not know of his directing prowess something unusual and an infraction occurred at his table. His opponent said "nevermind you just fix it up like this ...". Brian said he wasn't so sure and they had better call the director but the other player tried to insist that their was no need and he knew what he was doing (but he was of course wrong). Brian called the director. When the director established the facts he admitted he was unsure of what to do at which point he asked the new beginner Brian for advice. Brian's opponent fell off his chair in amazement that someone new who couldn't possibly know anything was consulted before he was.

 

Brian is still nothing much more than an intermediate player by his own admission but continues to be a very respected national director - when available assistant chief director at the national congress and a sometime director of our national trials. His main quality that gets him through is humility to know his limitations and ask good people for advice when he knows he is outside his depth.

 

I know I would rather have this man direct than a number of other directors that are better players but IMO much less competent directors.

[McBruce]

It seems to me that West's pass of the 5♦ call is very strong evidence that either he knew that 2NT was unusual (therefore an alert seems to be called for), OR, he thought that partner's 2NT was stong and balanced and bid a quantitative or Blackwood 4NT. Perhaps you can make a case that this is one where the auction itself tells West that pass is likely to be best over 5♦. If it is a Blackwood call, they are off two aces and another bid may be disastrous. If quantitative, unless there is an agreement about what 5♦ means, it looks to me plausible that this is a sign-off attempt by East.

 

Anyhow, I am not seeing the problem here. 4♥ can go down three on a spade lead and even bad defense beats it a trick. E-W have turned +500 or +800 into a chance at -100 if N-S get all their tricks against 5♦. E-W may be given a procedural penalty for failing to alert 2NT if unusual is their agreement, but I don't think N-S was damaged.

 

Perhaps the best bid as South after 2♥ - 2NT - ? might be 3♠! This will likely get doubled, but when you retreat to 4♥ and they bid 5♦ it will get a spade lead from partner. Dummy's void will lead you to the best defense after that. A heart lead into AK opposite void is what's called 'rub of the green,' meaning unlucky, not damage.

 

The 3♠ bid works whether the 2NT call is natural or unusual, not that the latter should enter anyone's mind. :ph34r:

[Cascade]

Now LHO bids 4NT at which point RHO says I don;t know what 4NT means but I better alert it without prompting by either my partner or I! (UI to her partner)

 

There seems to be a lot of UI in this auction and actions - what is the correct action by a director?

RHO has UI that 2NT was not alerted. But I do not think RHO has used that to influence his bids. However he might have used it to make the comment.

 

LHO has UI from the comment. It is difficult to tell how he might have used that without know what he intended from the 4NT bid. If he intended Blackwood then one ace was not enough so he doesn't need to bid a slam but he might try to sign-off in 5NT which might be problematic if partner thinks this is a King Ask.

 

Certainly RHO has communicated with his partner by an illegal means. A warning at the least and perhaps a procedural penalty are appropriate. If this has been a habit of this player then a disciplinary penalty would also be appropriate.

 

(i) 2NT not alerted - does LHO assume strong therefore 4NT was quantitive?

 

What ever LHO assumes he has to keep bidding according to that assumption after the receipt of UI from partner.

 

(ii) The 4♥ bid was influenced by the 2NT being strong as my AQ sits over the presumed K ♠ and I can capture K ♣ with the Ace...

 

Over unusual 2NT I may X first and then 4H! and also lead A ♠ over 5♦ before the Heart next...

 

You may have redress if the auction would be different if you had correct information. You are always entitled to correct information.

 

(iii) 4NT comment by RHO tells LHO that the repsonse is not conventional etc and they've messed up and so passes the 5 ♦  bid as it wasn't a conventional response to what LHO thought it meant - if ace asking or quantitive then he cannot pass 5 ♦ as he cannot know they have a ♦ fit if partner says nothing !!!

 

4NT bidder cannot use UI in this way.

 

This happened to me once. I made an asking bid in a slightly convoluted auction. Partner was asked about my bid and said that she had no idea what it meant (UI to me - the same as this out of place comment was UI). Therefore I knew that her next bid was going to be meaningless. She made a bid that showed two key-cards and the Queen of trumps. However I knew from her comments that it was unlikely that that is what she held. Nevertheless two key-cards and the Queen of trumps was exactly what I needed for slam so I closed my eyes and bid 6♠ fully expecting a disaster but also understanding that I was constrained by the UI.

 

This had a happy ending as by accident partner had Two Aces and the Queen of Spades.

 

In your case if 4NT bidder was going somewhere over a 5♦ response then she still needs to go their after the UI. This needs some further investigation to determine LHO's thoughts.

 

How would u rule in this case?

 

I would need to investigate further. However I am inclined to rule against your opponents unless they can convince me that nothing untoward happend.

 

Even if I do not rule against them I am inclined toward giving RHO a procedural penalty - although as I said depending on other information I may downgrade this to a warning or (less likely) upgrade it to a disciplinary penalty.

[Cascade]

If it is a Blackwood call, they are off two aces and another bid may be disastrous.

And passing with three diamonds when partner also might be short is not going to be disasterous?