SJS in 2/1

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=saq9h9dakqj63ca65]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠ (P) ?[/hv]

 

Playing 2/1 is this a 3♦ SJS or are you happy to start with a gf 2♦ ?

[maggieb]

I'd start with Jacoby 2N. We're going to want to end up bidding blackwood for spades anyway, but this way we can find out more about partner's hand before we do that (particularly whether or not he's stiff/void in diamonds).

[jillybean]

J2nt promises 4♠'s and some players believe it is never right to bid it with less.

[maggieb]

J2nt promises 4♠'s and some players believe it is never right to bid it with less.

Did you even read/think about what I wrote?

[Jlall]

You could start with 3D and later bid 4H showing 6 good diamonds, spade support, and short hearts.

 

That is a good description of this hand. The thing about this hand though is that it is so good that you would rather learn about partners hand rather than try to show your hand.

 

So that brings up the rare scenario where very early on in the auction rather than describe your hand you decide you need to find out about certain things and go about doing that rather than giving an accurate description of your hand.

 

This happens usually when you have a "freak" hand, but might also occur when you know that you are trying to find 7 early on.

 

So what do you bid with this hand? Not sure, there are several issues at hand. I think maggieb has decided this is a hand she will not try to describe though, but rather will get information from partner.

 

So basically maggie is breaking the "rule" about what 2N shows, because she knows she will end up asking and then placing the contract.

 

Hopefully maggie is sure if the auction is something like

 

1S 2N

4S 4N

5D 6D

 

where 5D shows 1 keycard, that 6D does not ask for a third round diamond control for 7! It would be a disaster to play 6S.

[Echognome]

I guess I'm a bit confused. To me it seems a somewhat redundant use of bids to have both 2♦ as natural GF and 3♦ as a SJS, unless I have defined certain hand types that fit under the SJS category that would be denied if I started with 2♦. If that is the case, what are those hands?

 

As I have not played a SJS in years, I would definitely start with 2♦, planning on showing my spade support next round and then reemphasizing my diamonds. I'm driving to slam, but I think partner should be allowed to evaluate as well. It's certainly possible partner has short diamonds and we should still be in 7.

[jillybean]

J2nt promises 4♠'s and some players believe it is never right to bid it with less.

Did you even read/think about what I wrote?

No I didnt think about it for long, I want to keep my partner in the picture and would rather make an attempt to describe my hand as well as getting the information I need to place the contract. If I start with J2nt I couldnt blame partner for "correcting" any diamond slam to the equivalent spade slam.

[jillybean]

I guess I'm a bit confused.  To me it seems a somewhat redundant use of bids to have both 2♦ as natural GF and 3♦ as a SJS, unless I have defined certain hand types that fit under the SJS category that would be denied if I started with 2♦.  If that is the case, what are those hands?

Ditto, I couldnt understand why you would want to bid 3♦ when 2♦ is available. The more I read about this, 3♦ can show a slam going hand with ♦'s and 3+ ♠ support. (corrected, not a fit jump)

[Echognome]

Don't get me wrong. I can understand the benefits, but they have to be defined. I personally prefer to use 3♦ as a bid to make up for using 2/1 forcing to game and 1NT as semi-forcing. So 3♦ shows a hand that would have bid 2♦ then 3♦ if playing that as non-forcing.

 

But there are plenty of useful alternatives, depending on your preferences and the rest of your system. I can imagine using 3♦ as:

 

SJS

IJS (my choice)

WJS

Mini Splinter

Fit Jump

Bergen

Some other raise of partner's major

[georgeac]

i would bid 2♦. i personally use 3♦ as a bergen raise showing 4 spades and 10-12 hcp.

[jillybean]

Arent fit jumps and mini splinters used by passed hands?

[Echognome]

Arent fit jumps and mini splinters used by passed hands?

Often, the meaning of your bids as an unpassed hand would be impossible if you are a passed hand. Take a simple 2/1 GF bid. As a PH, you cannot have a GF, so most lower the requirements of the call as a PH to invitational values (Drury not withstanding).

 

For us, the 3♦ IJS is "impossible" as a PH, as you would have opened the bidding with a preempt or would have a natural 2♦ call now. Thus, we assign an alternative meaning to those calls and play all jumps by a passed hand as fitted. You can assign alternative meanings such as mini splinters by preference.

[P_Marlowe]

The hand is certainly strong enough for a SJS.

 

But 2D followed by 3S would also be ok, and if you dont mind

having only 3 card support for a Jacoby 2NT bid, 2NT as well.

 

But of course the question is, do you need to bid this way?

 

The boring way to bid this hand is to just to bid 4NT, and

after partners response ask for kings.

Those answers should allow you to judge, if you have 13 tricks.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

J2nt promises 4♠'s and some players believe it is never right to bid it with less.

Some player also believe, peoble who open NT with a singlton

are bound to end up in hell to play an endless game of BINGO

with their stepmother.

 

Did this believe stop you finally?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

Kathryn,

 

I think it is a good idea for you and your partners to stick to rules. So bid J2NT with 4 spades. I doubt that it is a good idea to have a SJS and 2/1 GF, there are better ways to use 3 Diamond- see Gnomes post. But if you are familiar and have some ideas how to approach after a SJS, stick to it.

 

But while getting better, think about Justins exellent statement. There are hands where you need to break the rules to get the right informations. But you must have a clear reason and a beer for part if it does not work.

 

For this hand: If I have a SJS in my system, I should use it on this hand. If I don't, I should abandon this convention.

 

I hope you have defined the bid and the continuations well, else you will receive a lot of problems...

[blackshoe]

Romex has tenaciously held on to the SJS for a long time. In that system, a SJS is narrowly defined, and there is a good structure after the SJS designed to facilitate slam exploration. However, even Romex is (slowly!) giving up this bid in many cases.

 

A Romex SJS requires 5 or more controls, 5 or fewer losers, and at least 5 cards in the JS suit. Responder will have one of two hand types: single suited, with an independent suit, or two suited with at least four card support for opener's suit. Responder's suit will typically have only one loser. Opener's rebids, in priority order:

 

Raise the JS suit: a top honor (A, K, or Q) in the responder's suit (even with a singleton!)

Bid an unbid suit: concentration (2 of the top 3 honors) in the suit

Bid his own suit: concentration in the suit

minimum NT: no other bid

 

Further bidding is either natural, or using relays, I forget which. Or maybe it's "you pick". :D

 

There are 12 possible jump shifts. This is how Romex currently plays them:

 

1♣-2♦: limit raise in clubs

1♣-2♥: SJS

1♣-2♠: SJS

 

1♦-2♥: weak major two suiter

1♦-2♠: invitational major two suiter

1♦-3♣: limit raise in diamonds

 

1♥-2♠: GF, 4+trumps, a void somewhere

1♥-3♣: simple raise with 4 trumps (a la Bergen)

1♥-3♦: limit raise with 4 trumps

 

1♠-3♣: GF, 4+ trumps, a void somewhere

1♠-3♦: simple raise with 4 trumps

1♠-3♥: limit raise with 4 trumps

 

So there's only 2 SJSs left! I wouldn't be surprised to see Rosenkranz and company come up with some other use for those bids, useful as they may be.

 

NB: I'm not saying this is the best possible structure, only that this is where Romex is at these days, and that I don't think it's a bad structure. YMMV, of course. ;)

[jillybean]

J2nt promises 4♠'s and some players believe it is never right to bid it with less.

Some player also believe, peoble who open NT with a singlton

are bound to end up in hell to play an endless game of BINGO

with their stepmother.

 

Did this believe stop you finally?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Haha, my 1nt openings were making my partners tell me to go to hell. Who wants to play with someone when you have significant doubt that they will have the cards for their bid?

 

Recently, I attended one of Mike Lawrences lessons and during a dicussion on J2nt I asked the question "can I do it on 3 card support?". Mikes answers are always very detalied and complete, this time it was just one word, NO!

 

With pickup partners I frequently created bids to force a response, as well as being a horrible way to play, it is certain death for a partnership.

[kenrexford]

1. I really hate SJS in the context of a 2/1 approach

 

2. I really hate Jacoby 2NT unless I have a roughly balanced hand with prime values.

 

3. I love 2D GF usually, but I really love it when I have a stiff heart. Opener is very likely to rebid 2H, letting me set trumps low with a 2S call. This will provide much more information, IMO.

 

My ideal auction:

 

1S-P-2D-P-

2H-P-2S(spades set)-P-

2NT(not two of the top three spades)-P-3C(club control, trumps not a problem)-P-

?

 

At this predictable point, Opener will be bypass 3D to deny a diamond card (obviously). He may cue 3H to show two of the top three hearts. If he does this, I will cue 3S to show two of the top three spades. Opener will now be able to tell me if he has serious interest (unlikely unless he has great spade length and primed hearts) or if non-serious whether he has the club King (or plausibly a stiff), and possibly something about diamond length and/or his hearts.

 

If Opener does not initially cue 3H, he will be able to tell me about the spade King early on (3S), allowing me to cue a serious 3NT to hear about clubs and the other possible info.

 

This all seems more useful in the end game than the expected Jacoby response of 3D, which tells me little.

 

If Opener cannot rebid hearts, this also tells me things, and then I just set trumps with a 3S call, probably ending up with some useful info before bidding on.

[jillybean]

duplicate

[jillybean]

Kathryn,

 

I think it is a good idea for you and your partners to stick to rules. So bid J2NT with 4 spades. I doubt that it is a good idea to have a SJS and 2/1 GF, there are better ways to use 3 Diamond- see Gnomes post. But if you are familiar and have some ideas how to approach after a SJS, stick to it.

 

But while getting better, think about Justins exellent statement. There are hands where you need to break the rules to get the right informations. But you must have a clear reason and a beer for part if it does not work.

 

For this hand: If I have a SJS in my system, I should use it on this hand. If I don't, I should abandon this convention.

 

I hope you have defined the bid and the continuations well, else you will receive a lot of problems...

No, I dont have any idea on continuations which is why Im here asking questions. I'm not even sure that 3♦ should be a SJS, it was 'undefined' in my system until it popped up the other day :)

 

My partner has sent me Karen Walkers article on SJS, looks like a good reference if you do play SJS

http://home.comcast.net/~kwbridge/bb/b_jshift.htm

 

This paragraph from Karens site sums up my experience with SJS perfectly

 

The strong jump-shift is one of the first special responses new players learn to use and, once discovered, it's usually used far too often. One form of abuse, "standard" in many party bridge games, is to jump-shift with even a balanced 13-count, just to give partner the good news that a game is available.

With experience, most of us learn to abandon this treatment and convert to the old Goren requirement of 19+ points. But according to many of today's experts, that standard may no longer be practical or even correct.

[ArcLight]

In the 2/1 sysme notes from Mike Lawrences CD on 2/1 and his books, 3♦ would be an Intermediate Jump shift.

 

I dont think you need the SJS over a major opening, just make a 2/1.

Its over the minor suit opening that its needed.

[jdonn]

Ken does opener ever not make the cheapest rebid in your example auctions? I think I've finally come around. If opener always makes the cheapest rebid, and responder always supports opener, your system is amazing! :)

[kenrexford]

Ken does opener ever not make the cheapest rebid in your example auctions? I think I've finally come around. If opener always makes the cheapest rebid, and responder always supports opener, your system is amazing! :D

Josh, as you might notice, I also commented on when Opener does not make the cheapest rebid. I noted, however, that the stiff heart makes it very likely that he does.

 

That said, again, if Opener bids anything else other than the likely 2H, I am still happy with a 2D response. I just sets trumps at 3S and hear something actually useful.

 

The point is to predict the odds-on call from partner. If I bid 2D, the odds seems to strongly favor a 2H rebid, which is great. If I start 2NT, the odds seems to favor a 3D response, which is useless. So, I go for the one that screams best case, especially if the unexpected is not a problem either.

[vuroth]

re: 2NT

 

Is there an expert feel here that the spade slam is always going to be better than the diamond slam? Granted, we're likely to end up in spades, and I certainly get Justin's point about using 2NT to take control of the auction, but this IS IMPs. Once in a while, diamonds is going to be the best place to be, right?

 

V

[rduran1216]

Assuming you play 2/1, you dont need SJS.

 

you expect the auction to look like this in 2/1

 

1S 2D

2H 2S

4S 4NT...

 

or

 

1S 2D

2S 3S

4S 4NT...

 

you are headed for slam anyway. The reason I'd opt for 2/1 and not some special bid in this spot, is I'm gonna do the slamming with this hand, and any info is good. I don't care that my partner has 1 or 0 diamonds, I want to know if we've got a club fit, or if my partner has the A of hearts to swing this to 6 or 7NT.

 

I see no need to make a Jacoby 2NT bid, and playing bergen 3D is out of the question for me personally.