Problem After a Negative Response

[bob100147]

Our version of Precision is similar to the version in Precision Today. We can run into trouble when the auction begins 1♣ - 1♦ and opener has a five card minor and a four card major. If opener bids the five card minor the four card major can get buried. Any suggestions?

[rbforster]

How much artificial structure do you want?

 

Something simple - let 1♠ promise only 4 (could be minor canape), and use 2♦ as an asking bid for a 4cM after 1♣-1♦-2♣ similar to after a precision 2♣ opener.

 

If you want something more complicated, see my previous discussion, and in particular this is my "solution" to the general problem of poor constructive bidding after starting 1♣-1♦.

[gwnn]

we played 2♦ over 2♣ (2M=I have 4, anything else=descriptive) and 2♥ over 2♦ (2S=4 spades, 2NT=4 hearts, anything else=descriptive) as stayman (2NT over 2♦ would show 5 hearts). Not exactly beautiful but simple.

 

Probably it makes sense to rebid 1NT sometimes with 2-4-5-2, but we never thought about it :)

[jdonn]

One thing you can do which I first saw in Precision in the 90s nearly a decade ago is to use the following bids over opener's minor suit rebid. Everyone knows the first but many don't realize you can do the same thing on the second:

 

1♣ - 1♦ -

2♣ -

2♦: Asking bid, allows opener to show a 4 card major.

2NT: Diamonds.

 

1♣ - 1♦ -

2♦ -

2♥: Asking bid, allows opener to show a 4 card major (2NT shows 4 hearts, opener can't be balanced).

2NT: Hearts.

 

Edit: Sorry didn't see gwnn posted exactly the same thing. Just to make an original contribution, here is what I saw in TOSR for opener's rebids over 1♦. It's from memory so I hope I'm not messing it up, but it's very much like Woolsey over 1NT.

 

1♥: 20+

1♠: 6+ minor or 4 major 5+ minor

1NT: 17-19 balanced

2♣: 4+/4+ 9+ total majors

2♦: 6+ major

2♥: 5 hearts 4+ minor

2♠: 5 spades 4+ minor

2NT: 5+/5+ minors.

[akhare]

As I recollect, Meckwell play that a 1M rebid after 1♣ - 1♦ shows 4+ and is forcing for one round.

 

Over this you can play 1N as a retreat for a poor hand without a fit and then use 2♣/2♦ to show varying degrees of support / strength. Alternatively, you simply raise to 2M with 3+ card support and a relatively decent hand.

[straube]

One thing you can do which I first saw in Precision in the 90s nearly a decade ago is to use the following bids over opener's minor suit rebid. Everyone knows the first but many don't realize you can do the same thing on the second:

 

1♣ - 1♦ -

2♣ -

2♦: Asking bid, allows opener to show a 4 card major.

2NT: Diamonds.

 

1♣ - 1♦ -

2♦ -

2♥: Asking bid, allows opener to show a 4 card major (2NT shows 4 hearts, opener can't be balanced).

2NT: Hearts.

 

Edit: Sorry didn't see gwnn posted exactly the same thing. Just to make an original contribution, here is what I saw in TOSR for opener's rebids over 1♦. It's from memory so I hope I'm not messing it up, but it's very much like Woolsey over 1NT.

 

1♥: 20+

1♠: 6+ minor or 4 major 5+ minor

1NT: 17-19 balanced

2♣: 4+/4+ 9+ total majors

2♦: 6+ major

2♥: 5 hearts 4+ minor

2♠: 5 spades 4+ minor

2NT: 5+/5+ minors.

jdonn is right, but I think TOSR's 1S rebid can be 5m4m as well.

 

1C-1D, 1S-1N

 

2C-5 clubs and side suit

2D-5 diamonds and side suit

2H-4H and 6m (unspecified)

2S-4S and 6m (unspecified)

 

I can't remember the difference between

 

1C-1D, 1S-1N, 3m and

1C-1D, 3m

[straube]

As I recollect, Meckwell play that a 1M rebid after 1♣ - 1♦ shows 4+ and is forcing for one round.

 

Over this you can play 1N as a retreat for a poor hand without a fit and then use 2♣/2♦ to show varying degrees of support / strength. Alternatively, you simply raise to 2M with 3+ card support and a relatively decent hand.

Meckwell

 

1C-1D, 1H

 

1S-0-7 with 4+ spades and 0-3 hearts

1N-0-4 with 0-3 spades and 0-3 hearts

2C-6-7 with 0-2 hearts

.....2D-relay

..........2H-2-fit

2D-6-7 with 3+ hearts

..........2H-sign off

...............2S-4S/3H

2H-0-4 with 4 hearts

2S-6-7 with 5 spades and 3 hearts

2N-?

3m-6-7 with 6m and 3 hearts

 

 

1C-1D, 1S is similar, but I can't remember what is. I think, however, that

 

1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2D-2H is natural

 

So I'm leaning toward 1C-1D, 1S-2H showing 6-7 with 3S/5H

[Mbodell]

Our version of Precision is similar to the version in Precision Today. We can run into trouble when the auction begins 1♣ - 1♦ and opener has a five card minor and a four card major. If opener bids the five card minor the four card major can get buried. Any suggestions?

In addition to what others said, counting 225m4 as balanced when in your nt range means the only hands you are worried about are 1345 and 4450. Over 2m, if responder is non-terrible they can also just bid natural to look for fits. I haven't found much problem with this to date. The major fits sometimes are buried when the hands are both terrible (in context), but even then the opponents sometimes balance and let you find a better fit.

[bob100147]

we played 2♦ over 2♣ (2M=I have 4, anything else=descriptive) and 2♥ over 2♦ (2S=4 spades, 2NT=4 hearts, anything else=descriptive) as stayman (2NT over 2♦ would show 5 hearts). Not exactly beautiful but simple.

 

Probably it makes sense to rebid 1NT sometimes with 2-4-5-2, but we never thought about it :unsure:

All of these suggestions are very helpful. I like this idea in particular because the agreements can be on after interference and we often get interference when responder is weak. So, for example, we could use this structure after 1♣-pass-1♦-1♠.

[dake50]

Welcome to BRIDGE! Your advantage is knowing strong with weak. Disadvantage is not knowing which where is our fit. The very trade-off of 1C-forcing. Accept this problem exists on rare occasions.

 

I suggest bidding out your shape as game is usually remote --find best partial fit. Thus 2m, not 1M on 4-suit. Let partner suggest his suit if he has one; max negative if that.

[shevek]

By all means rebid 1♥ & 1♠ with canapé hands.

Precision has an unhealthy fixation wiuth 5-card majors. 5 to open 1♥, respond 1♥ to 1♣, rebid 1♥.

I think they should all be 4-carders but you'd be looking for a new name.

 

If 1♥ & 1♠ rebids could be canapé, you take strain off 2♣ & 2♦, which is good. Still, you need to be prepared to play a few 4-3 major and minor fits.

After

1♣  1♦

1♠  2♠

 

you need some adjustments. Since this could be a 4-3 fit, opener needs 5 for a normal game try. With just 4, opener can rebid 3♣ & 3♦ as non-forcing canapé tries. 3♥ could be a help-suit trial, 2NT can be something fancy, such as start of a short-suit try.

 

The problems come when responder has a bit too much for a single raise but only 3 trumps. Say:

♠K76   ♥T4  ♦A7654  ♣872

 

If 1♠ showed 5, you would bid 3♠ or equivalent. That's dubious opposite a possible 4-carder. Either make a heavy single raise or have a Drury style 2♣ bid to show this.

 

The other issue is opener's 2♣ & 2♦ rebids being 5-4 either way. That makes a traditional forcing notrump less workable and jeopardises the 5-2 major fit. For instance

1♣  1♦

1♠  1NT

2♦  ?

 

♠J6  ♥A753  ♦J43  ♣T654

 

responder should pass now in the possible 4-3. Bididng 2♠ risks a silly 4-2.

 

None of this bothers me in the slightest.

[csdenmark]

Our version of Precision is similar to the version in Precision Today.  We can run into trouble when the auction begins 1♣ - 1♦ and opener has a five card minor and a four card major.  If opener bids the five card minor the four card major can get buried.  Any suggestions?

Doesn't matter Bob. Only for game MAJORs are superior. 5-3 and even 5-2 minors will better for a partscore than looking at a higher level for 4-4 majors.

 

This means if you introduce your second suit you will be looking for game.

[PrecisionL]

I have played 1♣ - 1♦ - 1M rebid as 4+ cards and One Round Force for 10 years now. That is the recommendation written up in Match Point Precision, 1975 (Anderson & Wei) and One Club Complete, 1981 (Radin & Kathi Wei).

 

Cheapest rebid by responder can be 0-4 hcp and all others 5-7.

 

Berkowitz and Cohen have played 2♣ (0-2M) and 2♦ (3M) with 5-7 hcp. There are other artificial follow-ons for responder: 1NT comes to mind from Toad Club that is 5+ cards in a black suit and 2♣ = 5-7 hcp, no 5-card suit (balanced). 2♠ = any 4441 & 5-7 hcp.

 

Also, some prefer 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ to be 19+ and balanced, or 4+♥ and 2-suited. Precision Today, 2002.

 

Preference somewhat depends on style and Pairs or Teams.

 

Larry

[cwiggins]

You might also try the continuations Moscito used when 1D was negative.

 

Based on memory and adjusting for the Precision range of 16+ unbalanced and 17+ balanced:

1H = Relay with 19+. All others are 16-18 unless noted otherwise

1S = 4+ spades, unbalanced. May have longer minor.

1N = 17-19 balanced

2C = 4+ hearts in a 2- or 3-suited hand.

2D = 3 cards in one major, 0-1 in the other.

2H = 1-suited in hearts

2S = Fewer than 3 cards in both majors, clubs are longer than or as long as diamonds

2N = Fewer than 3 cards in both majors

3C = 6+ clubs, 3-3 in majors

3D = 6+ diamonds, 3-3 in majors

 

I don't remember whether this was part of system:

3H = 5+/5+ in majors, strongly invitational. Perhaps AKxxx/AKQxx/xx/x

3S = 5+/5+ in majors, GF. Perhaps AKxxx/AKQxxx/x/x

 

You won't miss your 4-4 major fits unless the 1C opener rebids 1NT. And you will find many 5-3 major fits as well.

[suokko]

One solution that was created to 1♣ 16+ 1♥ 0-5 negative continues was. Which is based on Cappelletti.

1♠ ART one round forcing (20+ unbal or 25+ bal).

1NT 17-19(20)

2♣ 5+ card major

2♦ 4+4+ majors or 23-24 bal

2M 4M5+m

2NT (20)21-22

3m 6+m

 

continues

1♣-1♥;1♠

1NT I have real junk. then 2♣ real FG hand asking responder to show the distribution.

2♣ bal or ♣ FG

2x 5(4)+ FG

 

1♣-1♥;2♣

2♦ relay, then 2M 5+ may have 4m, 2NT 5+♥5+m, 3m 5+♠5+m

2M/3m nat NF no interest in the major

 

1♣-1♥;2♦

2M preference

2NT/3♣ transfers

3♦/ ♥ transfers to 4 card major (inv vs majors)

 

1♣-1♥;2M

2NT asking for minor

others nat nf

 

This did give very good tool choose correct partial and bid thin games with good fit.

 

edit: 2NT opening was minors either weak or strong (forcing to 3NT/4m) and 1♦ might be opened heavy with 5+5+ minors so 1♣ denied 5+5+ minors.

[gwnn]

so what do you use 1c-1d for pauli?

[suokko]

so what do you use 1c-1d for pauli?

System notes that were a modified version that was not played.

 

1♦ FG relay

1♠+ semi-positive showing shape with symmetric relays.