the hog Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 "About not getting popular outside of US: There are many treatments that are not popular outside of Poland. Do you really think this means they are bad?" What odd logic you use. One reason many P treatments are not used outside P is that they are unfamilar because of a language problem. I have been trying to translate some P treatments and it takes me ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 Perhaps it is not standard Flannery, but its value may perhaps be enhanced by making it unlimited (no upper limit, that is). At least, if you use 2D for that use instead of 2H (which has other benefits), then the 2D opener could be treated as forcing (OK you lose the weak responder with long D). In that case a 1H opener could categorically deny a 4 card Spade suit. Provided that you take the trouble to capitalise on that implication to take maximum advantage of that knowledge in your subsequent continuations this may have some potential. Most of Chip Martel's comments in defense of Flannery disappear by playing KI. The only valid objection to KI that he makes is the prospect of opponents doubling 1S. He rates this as a "big" loser. If (and only if) he is right about that (so much so that this objection alone renders KI useless) do his other objections assume relevance. I don't have the pedigree to convince readers otherwise. I can only say that I have been playing KI for many years without noticing that loss. Perhaps not against the likes of Chip Martel. Sometimes their double can help you. Doubler frequently ends up on lead, and it is useful before you bid 3N to know that that is what he is going to lead. Doubler allows you to choose who declares NT when you have a "delicate" Spade guard. Often they double when they would otherwise overcall 2S, so all they have done is provide you with additional bidding space (by doubling instead) whilst not aiding their side in terms of transfer of information to partner. A typical defence to the double of 1S is to play Pass by opener to show a 4 card Spade suit, redouble with a balanced hand without a guard, 1N with a balanced hand plus guard. The extra bidding space afforded by the double is a two-edged sword, and I have certainly played in 1S doubled when opener has 4 Spades. I have also played in 1S redoubled when responder has held 4 Spades and some values (... somewhat remote scenario, this relies on playing "my" method as opposed to JRG's method, ie 1S response may have a 4 card S suit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 "About not getting popular outside of US: There are many treatments that are not popular outside of Poland. Do you really think this means they are bad?" What odd logic you use. One reason many P treatments are not used outside P is that they are unfamilar because of a language problem. I have been trying to translate some P treatments and it takes me ages. I think that the logic is not that unsound. You may be right, but if the methods are really that good they would get translated and they would be popularised, I feel. After all, precision took off like a rocket when the Chinese invented it. To my mind, the reason for their lack of popularity may be more down to licensing restrictions imposed by NCBOs outside of Poland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 26, 2004 Report Share Posted June 26, 2004 You may very well be right regarding restrictions, monocled one. Don't forget though, that Precision was marketed in the West and Wei actually paid people, Reese for example, to write books about it and promote it and get it off the ground. Wei even paid the Squaddra Azzura to use Precision. I wonder if they would have used it had there been no monetary incentive. We'll never know, I guess. How many Westerners on the other hand, have heard of Wladyslaw Izdebski, one of the best theoreticians around and the developer of many bidding treatments? No sponsorship means no money which in turn means no dissemination of ideas; it is sad, really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 Flannery is a waste of time, it just takes up space on your cc for no good reason. If you can't handle 5-4 in major, maybe you should try Bingo. Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 27, 2004 Report Share Posted June 27, 2004 Flannery is a waste of time, it just takes up space on your cc for no good reason. If you can't handle 5-4 in major, maybe you should try Bingo. Mike :D sigh... here we go again... i'm sure martel/stansby would make decent bingo players (to name just one pair)... mike, why do you think some world class players play it if there's "no good reason" to do so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 Flannery is a waste of time, it just takes up space on your cc for no good reason. If you can't handle 5-4 in major, maybe you should try Bingo. Mike :D sigh... here we go again... i'm sure martel/stansby would make decent bingo players (to name just one pair)... mike, why do you think some world class players play it if there's "no good reason" to do so? Cause it might fit with their system structure, and they might have been playing it for 30 years. Can't teach a dog new tricksFind me a modern pair that play it. My Mom plays Flannery too, and she has been playing before I was born, she just doesn't know any better. Mike ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 well mike, i'm sure you're right... the ones who play it are just old and set in their ways, or don't know any better, and whatever good results they've had (and are still having) are in *spite* of their shortsightedness in not checking with other, younger, players before choosing a system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 well mike, i'm sure you're right... the ones who play it are just old and set in their ways, or don't know any better, and whatever good results they've had (and are still having) are in *spite* of their shortsightedness in not checking with other, younger, players before choosing a system... I am 99.9% for sure their good results have nothing to do with them playing Flannery.They are just good players. Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 >First of all Meckwell do not play Flannery contrary to what others have said. My bad: I was asleep at the wheel and confused a three suiter with short diamonds and Flannery... Sorry to introduct any confusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PriorKnowledge Posted June 28, 2004 Report Share Posted June 28, 2004 If you must use Flannery, I recommend you broaden the hands it is used for. 4s/5h 4s/6h 5s/6h All are 11-15 HCP (maybe 10 for 5s/6h)Over 2N response, opener rebids: 3m = 4s/5h, 11-15, 3 or 4m 3H = 4=5=2=2 11-13 3S = 4=5=2=2 14-15 3N = 4=5=2=2 14-15 with most strength in minors 4m = 4s/6h, m is shortest suit 4H = 5s/6h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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