Hanoi5 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Let's say I, when being the dummy, always place the suit led on my right. If my partner is playing I place the suit led right next to the trumps. Are we cheating if my partner is aware of this situation? What if I place the suit that I think should be played soon or set-up on my right? Would that be cheating? What about writing down the lead (e.g. ♣5) on my scorecard as declarer and checking it while playing? What if I do a weird play that will make my partner aware of certain situation he might not know on his own while being declarer? Let's say I have K432 from dummy and I ask for the 4. Would this be cheating? Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Let's say I, when being the dummy, always place the suit led on my right. If my partner is playing I place the suit led right next to the trumps. Are we cheating if my partner is aware of this situation? No. You might get some aggro from opps if the suit led is the same color as trumps.What if I place the suit that I think should be played soon or set-up on my right? Would that be cheating?Yes.What about writing down the lead (e.g. ♣5) on my scorecard as declarer and checking it while playing?You can write it down. You can't refer to your scorecard during play.What if I do a weird play that will make my partner aware of certain situation he might not know on his own while being declarer? Let's say I have K432 from dummy and I ask for the 4. Would this be cheating?Since dummy can't participate in the play, you can tell him whatever you like. And no, you don't have to tell the opponents what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 1 is not cheating but is useless. 2 and 3 are cheating. 4 I don't understand, is declarer trying to send secret signals to dummy or is it the other way around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 What if I do a weird play that will make my partner aware of certain situation he might not know on his own while being declarer? Let's say I have K432 from dummy and I ask for the 4. Would this be cheating? Thanks for your input.With one of my previous partners, I used to do this (echoing with dummy) when I thought the oppos just allowed me to make an unmakeable contract. That was in my junior days. This is not cheating, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 You're not allowed to use any memory aids, this includes looking at your convention card or writing things to help you on your score card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 You're not allowed to use any memory aids, this includes looking at your convention card or writing things to help you on your score card. Exactly, and if I know the suit they led at the notrump contract is the first in dummy , isn't this an aid and therefore cheating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 You're not allowed to use any memory aids, this includes looking at your convention card or writing things to help you on your score card. Exactly, and if I know the suit they led at the notrump contract is the first in dummy , isn't this an aid and therefore cheating?You are absolutely right. The WBF is currently discussing about a new rule to prevent this unacceptable way of cheating : I have been told that before 2043 dummy's cards will be exposed only for 10 seconds at most. Then the partner of the declarer (which will be called the "zombie") will hold his cards as any other player around the table. Declarer will still tell him what to play at each turn. Penalties when declarer calls for a wrong card in zombie's hand are still under discussion. That may include copying the 10000 first decimals of PI a certain number of times, until you know them by heart (I'm not so sure about this last point though). :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 You're not allowed to use any memory aids, this includes looking at your convention card or writing things to help you on your score card. Exactly, and if I know the suit they led at the notrump contract is the first in dummy , isn't this an aid and therefore cheating? Seems that way to me, but I am not a laws expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 In that case isn't putting trumps on the left cheating? Quite honestly I'm not that worried about a player who thinks they can remember this secret signalling system but can't remember what suit is led. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 in Iceland I've been told more than once to put trumps to my right, and then the most expensive suit second from the right and so on (i.e. in a club contract D-H-S-C). I'm pretty sure there is no law that says this but maybe there was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant590 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 I normally use the 'dummy echo' in a doubled contract to say "relax partner, this is making"... perhaps this should be disclosed to the opponents too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 In that case isn't putting trumps on the left cheating? No, because you can always ask what the contract is. You cannot always ask what suit was led. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 in Iceland I've been told more than once to put trumps to my right, and then the most expensive suit second from the right and so on (i.e. in a club contract D-H-S-C). I'm pretty sure there is no law that says this but maybe there was? After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads his hand in front of him on the table, face up, sorted into suits, the cards in order of rank with lowest ranking cards towards declarer, and in columns pointing lengthwise towards declarer. Trumps are placed to dummy’s right. Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy. The placement of non-trump suits is not specified by law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjj29 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 in Iceland I've been told more than once to put trumps to my right, and then the most expensive suit second from the right and so on (i.e. in a club contract D-H-S-C). I'm pretty sure there is no law that says this but maybe there was? Alternatively, what I always do is put trumps on the right, and then alternate colours in suit contracts. In no trumps I put two of the same colour together in the middle and a suit which is unlikely to be trumps on the right. This is often the suit they have lead (as it would be), but that's coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted October 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Alternatively, what I always do is put trumps on the right, and then alternate colours in suit contracts. In no trumps I put two of the same colour together in the middle and a suit which is unlikely to be trumps on the right. This is often the suit they have lead (as it would be), but that's coincidence. That's where I got this idea from. I was often told not to put a likely trump suit first in a NT contract, so I usually put my shortest suit which happened to be the one they led quite often. But then I thought about putting always the suit led first and they I wodered what if my partner knows what I'm doing, and that's why I was asking but I seem to be assured it is not cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 I once read somewhere that it was a good idea to put down the suit led last. The idea is that if declarer sees the suit led first he will focus on that suit, but if he sees the suit led last, he is more likely to consider the whole hand rather than the suit of the opening lead in isolation. But, there's nothing saying you always have put the suits down left to right or right to left. I tend to think that all of this is much ado about nothing for any decent player. If you're playing with a partner who is apt to forget the contract you probably have other even more important issues to deal with. If your opponents do something like this because they might forget the contract, don't sweat it, you're going to do well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 This is not an inane thread, as far as I am concerned. Not putting a long major down on my right when pard is declaring NT seemed natural to me, but now I am not sure if it is proper (whether legal or not). Other considerations mentioned on this subject haven't entered my pee brain --except never putting the same colors together. But, now that I think about it more: not putting a long suit down on my right when the contract is NT is helpful to all players at the table, and the opps are far more likely to forget the strain than MY partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Heh. If by "proper" you mean "ethical within the rules of the game" then if it's legal, it's "proper". If you're talking about what some in these discussions have called "personal ethics", well, my take on that is that you do whatever your personal ethics tell you to do — or not do — so long as it's legal within the laws and regulations of the game. But you don't expect others to follow your personal ethics if what they do or do not do is also within the laws and regulations of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 This makes me think about something that really annoys me a lot against some (fortunately rare) dummies : some of them, instead of placing the cards "vertically", sort of "fan" them oblically (or even horizontally) on the table (suit by suit). Is this legal or not ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 But you don't expect others to follow your personal ethics if what they do or do not do is also within the laws and regulations of the game. I neither said nor implied that I did. Was merely saying what does, or does not, come into my head while putting down the dummy. Your take on what I meant by proper vs. legal is accurate. It is a personal ethics issue not to be confused with laws, rulings, or expectations of the same from others. Also, playfullness comes into play. It is always fun for me to put down half of my six-card support for pard's trump suit, then the other suits, then the other half. Usually Terry says "knock it off" before I get finished. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duschek Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 This makes me think about something that really annoys me a lot against some (fortunately rare) dummies : some of them, instead of placing the cards "vertically", sort of "fan" them oblically (or even horizontally) on the table (suit by suit). Is this legal or not ?It is not legal:After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads his hand in front of him on the table, face up, sorted into suits, the cards in order of rank with lowest ranking cards towards declarer, and in columns pointing lengthwise towards declarer. Trumps are placed to dummy’s right. Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 But you don't expect others to follow your personal ethics if what they do or do not do is also within the laws and regulations of the game. I neither said nor implied that I did. Was merely saying what does, or does not, come into my head while putting down the dummy. Your take on what I meant by proper vs. legal is accurate. It is a personal ethics issue not to be confused with laws, rulings, or expectations of the same from others. Also, playfullness comes into play. It is always fun for me to put down half of my six-card support for pard's trump suit, then the other suits, then the other half. Usually Terry says "knock it off" before I get finished. :) My "you" was general, not directed at anyone in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 This makes me think about something that really annoys me a lot against some (fortunately rare) dummies : some of them, instead of placing the cards "vertically", sort of "fan" them oblically (or even horizontally) on the table (suit by suit). Is this legal or not ?It is not legal:After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads his hand in front of him on the table, face up, sorted into suits, the cards in order of rank with lowest ranking cards towards declarer, and in columns pointing lengthwise towards declarer. Trumps are placed to dummy’s right. Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy.Raaaaaaaaaaaaaah thank you.I hope there is no local french regulation that will overrule this much needed Law. Tarring and weathering is finally going to take place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluejak Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Let's say I, when being the dummy, always place the suit led on my right. If my partner is playing I place the suit led right next to the trumps. Are we cheating if my partner is aware of this situation? What if I place the suit that I think should be played soon or set-up on my right? Would that be cheating? What about writing down the lead (e.g. ♣5) on my scorecard as declarer and checking it while playing? What if I do a weird play that will make my partner aware of certain situation he might not know on his own while being declarer? Let's say I have K432 from dummy and I ask for the 4. Would this be cheating?The importance of this thread, as so often, is that if you are directing and someone calls you to the table and asks you, you want to have the answer right. The fact that much of it is "Much Ado about nothing" is not the point. Nothing in this thread is cheating. It is not important enough. Since the order of putting down suits is not specified in the Laws it is not illegal to put them in the order you want. Participating in play is illegal, so #2 is illegal. Item #1 is too trivial to bother about. Item #3 is illegal since it is an aide memoire. And #4 is perfectly legal, and played since time immemorial by young Swedes to say "the contract is solid partner: you may stop worrying". I hope there is no local french regulation that will overrule this much needed Law.Such a regulation would be illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I hope there is no local french regulation that will overrule this much needed Law. Regulations are not allowed to override Laws. There are some Laws that explicitly allow for local options, but this is not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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