Fluffy Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 MPs, Both vulnerable ♠A♥AK8653♦J5♣K1064 1♥-(1♠)-2♦-(4♠)... 2♦= nat 10+ 1 round forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Double Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Ok I have extras, but don't know what to do. That's what double says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 MPs, Both vulnerable ♠A♥AK8653♦J5♣K1064 1♥-(1♠)-2♦-(4♠)... 2♦= nat 10+ 1 round forcing. Double, The clowns I usually end up getting as partners either never play forcing pass or don't consider this a forcing pass auction so I will try to get what I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Double takeout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Ok I have extras, but don't know what to do. That's what double says. Ditto. Usually partner doesnt know what do either however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Agree with everyone, unless it's a forcing-pass situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 damnit I should had suposed on the forum everyoone would play take our double hehe. With my partner at that time it would most ikelly been penalty though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 So after this hand you decided to switch to the good guys and play take out here? I would double no matter how partner takes it... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 hehe, If I put the same poll with spades and clubs switched I bet I would get over 70% doubles as well :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 hehe, If I put the same poll with spades and clubs switched I bet I would get over 70% doubles as well :) The same hand with spades and clubs switched is infinitely less likely on this auction. I definitely would pass if I happened to have that hand without fears, partner must be a huge favorite to have a spade void in which case he will do something. To me this is the equivalent of saying "If I posted KQJT9 xxx xxx xx I'm sure everyone would X a 4S opener." That hand has yet to come up for me in my life when they open 4S, and I like my chances on partner reopening X when I get it anyways. Meanwhile a good hand with short spades comes up all the time, and being forced to make a committal 4N bid with that type of hand would really suck. It's a game of percentages. Penalty doubles when you don't have any other way to show a good hand and they have bid and raised to a high level are just not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill1157 Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 4NT, whatever that may mean. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 X, ..., and this is not for t/o. I have 3-4 tricks, p made a 1 round force, p denied a hearts fit, where do I wanna go? Seems, I find myself again to be on the darkside. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 p denied a heart fit? when? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 p denied a heart fit? when? ..., at least in my partnership, this makes life easier. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_s Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I sense a learning opportunity here :lol: I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner. Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout. Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?) Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I sense a learning opportunity here :lol: I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner. Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout. Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?) Thanks An agressive FP agreement is to play FP in seq., where one side openedand the other made a inv.+ response.To play this rule is certainly not mainstream.This rule would not apply in the current situation, because 2D was onlya one round force. Nevertheless it is certainly playable, that a 1 round forcing 2/1 responsedoes setup a FP for the 4 level or higher (maybe above 4 of openers suit). With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I sense a learning opportunity here :lol: I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner. Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout. Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?) Thanks An agressive FP agreement is to play FP in seq., where one side openedand the other made a inv.+ response.To play this rule is certainly not mainstream.This rule would not apply in the current situation, because 2D was onlya one round force. Nevertheless it is certainly playable, that a 1 round forcing 2/1 responsedoes setup a FP for the 4 level or higher (maybe above 4 of openers suit). With kind regardsMarlowe I suspect it is probably good to kill FP on the LR calls as the variability of strength for these due to fit is too great to risk one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I sense a learning opportunity here :lol: I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner. Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout. Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?) Thanks You are right, the key is whether or not a pass is forcing. In forcing pass auctions, doubles say "please stop bidding" and tend to include defensive values and hands lacking a fit. If this was a forcing pass auction, we would have a perfect pass saying "it's up to you pard." In non forcing pass auctions, doubles just say "I have extra values. If you want to bid something please do so." This means you have to pass sometimes when you're loaded in their suit because you don't want partner to bid anything, a small price to pay. IMO 2D does not create a forcing pass at a high level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_s Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Great explanations. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 here is an old thread about almost this auction but the red suits reversed: http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=16479 please be kind and disregard my post which says forcing pass might make sense, now I think it does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) IMO 2D does not create a forcing pass at a high level. Right. Contrast this auction to: 1♥ - pass - 2♦ - 4♠? LOL: Sher... Edited October 30, 2009 by Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Mikeh do you really play 2♥ as gf in a partnership? 1♦-(1♠)-2♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Mikeh do you really play 2♥ as gf in a partnership? 1♦-(1♠)-2♥in one partnership style, yes. Is it my preferred method? No. how far it is forcing depends on my partnership....in one partnership we played transfer responses after a 1-level overcall, and 2♦ would have been hearts with less than gf, 2♥ would be natural and gf. In another, which I still play in occasionally, 2/1 is on in competition (sure, it causes problems, but it solves them sometimes too) while in my current main partnerships, 2♥ merely promises a rebid should the opps not bid any more. As for the posted problem: this is not a fp to me, nor, I think, to most. Why? Because 2♦ forced only one round, and the opps have bid beyond the level of our force. I think that this rule is a very, very important rule for fp situations: a fp is forcing ONLY if the auction so far has committed us either to game, expecting to make, or to beyond the level at which they have bid. On the hand, I would double. This is NOT takeout, anymore than it is PENALTY. it is increasingly common to play lots of doubles as 'I have extras but no convenient descriptive bid'. This can also be described as a 'do something intelligent, partner' double. That is often but not always 'pass'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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