Hanoi5 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... no if we open lite in first and second...otherwise ..yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Is the Pope a Catholic?Does a bear ***** in the woods?Of course I open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Yes, 1♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK I'll buck the trend :lol: Aceless, quacky, scattered honors, poor spots (no T or 9 are shown), potentially worthless ♥J, and only the club suit to open which has no obstructive value. I pass. I open if I hold KQxxx in a major instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 I would safe my energy for the comming boards. This hand is a partscore battle. Why should I belive that we will outscore them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 3-3 in majors persuades me to open. Having 4+M 3xM fit possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 ignorant of "butler" scoring, but I just considered the (perhaps silly) Pearson count, or the fact that there are 28 HCP in the other 3 hands --making it likely that my pard has enough to make it our hand. Also, if the opponents compete in a major, I have some quacks which might hurt them at their LAW level. In the blind, I expect to make 1NT, which is better than nothing. Maybe I could add my points and my spades together and open a strong NT :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1♣! and I dont mean it's alertable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONEferBRID Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know...I don't know what Butler is either, but if you need a "Rule", it satisfies bothRule-of-15 ( hcp + # of ♠ ) and Rule-of-18 ( Hcp + # of ♠ and ♥ ) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... I reach in my pocket, take out my decider, and flip it. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 TBH I think everyone goes through that phase where they start downgrading too often, especially with regards to opening with soft 12s and game forcing opposite an opener with a 12 count. You can always find negatives about a hand and focus on them. When it comes down to it, you aren't going to win by downgrading often. Look for reasons not to downgrade. If you can find none, and then find many reasons to downgrade, it's probably reasonable to do so. So what about this hand? We have a GOOD 5 card suit that we are going to get to open. Kx and QJx while not great are fine, the Q and J are worth more when together. A king is a good defensive value if partner starts doubling, and is a prime card. Those are lots of reasons not to downgrade. Sure we have no aces, and we have a stranded jack, but in my experience winning players are not downgrading much. They're getting in there, they're getting to close contracts, and they're winning. So don't downgrade this 12 count with 3 spades! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 TBH I think everyone goes through that phase where they start downgrading too often, especially with regards to opening with soft 12s and game forcing opposite an opener with a 12 count. You can always find negatives about a hand and focus on them. When it comes down to it, you aren't going to win by downgrading often. Look for reasons not to downgrade. If you can find none, and then find many reasons to downgrade, it's probably reasonable to do so. So what about this hand? We have a GOOD 5 card suit that we are going to get to open. Kx and QJx while not great are fine, the Q and J are worth more when together. A king is a good defensive value if partner starts doubling, and is a prime card. Those are lots of reasons not to downgrade. Sure we have no aces, and we have a stranded jack, but in my experience winning players are not downgrading much. They're getting in there, they're getting to close contracts, and they're winning. So don't downgrade this 12 count with 3 spades! I like it here, I learn something every day :P So, you expect the cases where opening this in 4th seat gives the opponents a major suit partscore to be in the minority? That was my concern, perhaps I should turn down my pessimism meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 the fact that 3rd seat at fav, didn't do anything reduces the concern about opps getting a plus in a Major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junyi_zhu Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... I pass, too many Qs and Js for a 4th seat opening. facing an average 7-8 HCP, this hand doesn't play very well. If I have one more spade, I'd open for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... I pass, too many Qs and Js for a 4th seat opening. facing an average 7-8 HCP, this hand doesn't play very well. If I have one more spade, I'd open for sure. You are missing 28, so partner's average is 9.33. In addition RHO passed in 3rd seat, so partner's average is probably pretty close to 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Yeah it is a huge edge to have so many more HCP than them on average, and 3-3 in the majors is not bad at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dburn Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 A "Butler" tournament is a pairs tournament with IMP scoring (the scores on each board are averaged to produce a datum, and each pair IMPs its own score against the datum). Assume the field passes the hand out (a rash assumption that almost never comes to pass, but it will suffice for the moment). Now: if we open and partner has nothing much, we will lose 100 or (rarely) 200 - 3 or 5 IMPs. If we open and it is our hand, we will win 3 or (rarely) 4 IMPs. The question thus boils down to: how likely is this to be our hand? And the answer to that depends to a very large extent on partner's and the opponents' attitude to opening the bidding. If our side opens a significant proportion of 11-point hands, vulnerable in second seat, we should probably pass. If their side opens a significant proportion of 11-point hands, not vulnerable in first or third seat, we should probably bid. Since I don't know what Hanoi's partner's style is, nor what his opponents' style was, I don't know what he should have done. Myself, I would bid, since one of my partners has had considerable success with the policy of always opening the bidding in fourth position. "If", he says, "the opponents can make anything, one of them should have opened the bidding." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junyi_zhu Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Red vs White, after three passes you're looking at: ♠QJx♥Jxx♦Kx♣KQxxx What's your call? It's a butler tournament if you need to know... I pass, too many Qs and Js for a 4th seat opening. facing an average 7-8 HCP, this hand doesn't play very well. If I have one more spade, I'd open for sure. You are missing 28, so partner's average is 9.33. In addition RHO passed in 3rd seat, so partner's average is probably pretty close to 10. I am not saying partner's average HCP is 7-8. I am saying facing a normal "average" 7-8 HCP with one ace or two kings, this hand doesn't play very well. Especially because your main suit is club, which can be killed by diamonds, hearts and spades, and you may not be able to show your 5 card club suit when your opp find their major suit. Also, if both sides have 9 card fit, you will be most likely in clubs and you actually don't have much defensive value against 3S/H/D, cause you have CKQ in your 9 card fit. So basically if both sides have a 8 card fit, you can be out bid by them, if both sides have a 9 card fit, you don't have much defense. Even changing the club suit to diamond may improve your situation significantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 You are right if partner's hand is worse than usual, we will do worse than expected. But that is why we look at the average, to decide how we will do in the most common cases, not in the worst possible cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dellache Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1NT... weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 1NT... weak. One of the downsides of weak NT in 4th seat seems to be that you can't play 1M anymore. You also are opening 1N less frequently. Of course on the plus side sometimes you will get to play 1N when they could have found a making 2 level partscore otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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