1N-2C, 2D

[straube]

Advice sought.

 

After 1N-2C, 2D my continuations are...

 

2H-garbage stayman

2S-GI with 5 spades

2N-GI

 

and in order to show a slammish 4M/6C hand, I have to bid at the 4-level.

 

I'm thinking of switching so that

 

2H-GI with 5 spades OR those slammish hands with 4M/6C

.....2S-nonacceptance against GI with 5 spades

.....2N-acceptance against GI with 5 spades

..........3L-exploring 4M/6C slammish

 

2S-garbage stayman

2N-GI

 

Obviously with 54 major patterns, one would just transfer to the 5-card suit. I guess I don't see a huge loss in not being able to play a 4-3 heart fit. What do you think?

[maggieb]

I think you are losing too much by not being able to bid garbage stayman with 5♥+4♠.

 

I'm interested in what your 3m continuations are over

 

1N-2♣

2♦-?

 

which you have sacrificed your natural 3m bids for.

[straube]

Thanks for your input. Here's the whole thing...

 

2C...stayman promising a major

.....2D-none

..........2H-majors, p/c

..........2S-GI 5 spades

..........2N-GI (could be 4S/5H with bad hearts)

..........3C-puppets 3D to show various 4M/5m patterns

..........3D-4S/5H GI

..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6 slammish

..........3S-1-4-3-5 or 1-4-2-6 slammish

..........3N-likely both majors

..........4C-4-2-1-6

..........4D-2-4-1-6

.....2H-four hearts

..........2S-GI 5 spades

..........2N-GI 4 spades

..........3C-puppets to 3D to show 4 spades and unspecified shortness

..........3D-size ask with heart fit

..........3H-4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6

..........3S-4-3-1-5 or 4-2-1-6

..........3N-spade splinter!

..........4m-splinter

.....2S-four spades

..........similar to hearts

 

2D...transfer, 5 cards

......2S-GI, artificial

......2N-GF with a minor.

...........3C-no heart fit

.................3D-short spade

.................3H-3-5-4-1

.................3S-3-5-1-4

.................3N-no shortness or not slamming

.................4C-2-6-4-1

.................4D-2-6-1-4

...........etc. with heart fit

.....3C-GF, 4 spades

..........3D-no fit, asks shortness

.................3H-4-5-3-1

.................3S-4-5-1-3

.................3N-no shortness or not slamming

......3D-5 clubs

......3H-5 diamonds

......3S-self splinter

......3N-true COG (likely 5H332)

......4m-self splinter

 

2H-transfer

......2N-GF with a minor

......3C-GF with four hearts

......3D-GI+ with 5/5 in the majors

......3H-five clubs

......3S-five diamonds

 

2S-size ask

......2N-weak

......3C-strong

...........P-club bust

...........3D-short club, 3+M and 4+D

.................suits are bid up the line until a fit is found

...........3H-club slam try

...........3S-balanced slam try, relays for opener's shape

 

2N-puppet stayman, usually not slammish

......3C-not 4333

..........3D-four hearts

..........3H-four spade

..........3S-1-3-(54)

......3D-unspecified 4333

...........3H-four spades

...........3S-four hearts

......3M-5 of major

 

3C-transfer

......3H-diamond slam try

......3S-5/5 minors

......4L-can be used to show 6m4m21s

 

3D-short diamonds, 3+M and 4+C

.....suits bid up the line until a fit is found

 

3H-short hearts, 3+S and 4+m

.....3S-shows 4S

.....4S-shows 5S

 

3S-short spades, 4H and 4+m

 

just about any time responder has shown shortness before 3N, a bid of 4C by either partner announces that a fit has been found and strongly invites slam. So 1N-3H, 4C-4D, 5C would show that opener is strongly interest in a club slam.

[karlson]

At a very quick glance, there seems to be a whole lot of redundancy in the 1n-3M, 1n-2c-2M-3c and 1n-2c-2M-3M sequences. Surely you can dump, for instance, the 1n-2c-2h-3h sequence since that hand can just bid 3h over 1n?

 

Which problem with 1n-2c-2x-3m as natural and GF are you trying to solve? It seems like maybe it's distinguishing 6m from 5m and pinpointing the shortness. For the shortness, you could play the next step as a shortness ask, but I find that opener bidding concentration works very well too.

[straube]

At a very quick glance, there seems to be a whole lot of redundancy in the 1n-3M, 1n-2c-2M-3c and 1n-2c-2M-3M sequences. Surely you can dump, for instance, the 1n-2c-2h-3h sequence since that hand can just bid 3h over 1n?

 

Which problem with 1n-2c-2x-3m as natural and GF are you trying to solve? It seems like maybe it's distinguishing 6m from 5m and pinpointing the shortness. For the shortness, you could play the next step as a shortness ask, but I find that opener bidding concentration works very well too.

The difference is that the 1N-3M guarantees 4 cards in each minor. The others only guarantee 4M/5m and shortness. So for instance, with...

 

4-1-4-4 1N-3H

 

but

 

4-1-3-5 1N-2C, 2D-3H

 

The first sequence shows interest in three suits, the latter only interest in 2 suits really (because the same sequence could be bid with 4-1-2-6).

 

As far as what problem I'm trying to solve with 1N-2C, 2X-3m, I don't think this standard sequence helps opener very much. After

 

1N-2C, 2D-3D for example in standard methods, the only thing that opener knows is that responder has diamonds and has probably slam interest.

 

After 1N-2C, 2H-3D it's unclear whether partner has just diamonds or diamonds and spades.

 

Besides which, identifying shortness is very useful for opener in evaluating his hand.

[maggieb]

straube I mostly agree with karlson. Also to point out an example of what I think is a redundancy:

 

1N-2♣

2♥-3♣

 

"..........3C-puppets to 3D to show 4 spades and unspecified shortness"

 

What kind of hand would bid this way? It seems you have a bid for every shape that has 4 spades and some shortness.

 

Also when you type something like 4-2-1-6, do you mean either minor? Because maybe I am just missing something, but I don't see how you show diamonds.

[straube]

Showing diamonds...

1N-2C, 2H-3C, 3D-3H=4-1-5-3 or 4-1-6-2

.....3S-shows interest in the possible fragment (i.e. clubs)

1N-2C, 2H-3C, 3D-3S-4-2-6-1 (not 4-3-5-1 which proceeds 1N-2S, 2N-3D)

 

Showing clubs...

1N-2C, 2H-3H=4-1-3-5 or 4-1-2-6

......3S-shows interest in the possible fragment (i.e. diamonds)

1N-2C, 2H-3S=4-2-1-6 (not 4-3-1-5 which procees 1N-3D)

 

 

 

Yes, I'm trying to show all three-suited patterns before 3N has been passed. I think that's a good goal.

[benlessard]

At a quick glance....

 

(41)44 are less important than (13)(45) they are a less slammish and they offer only 2 trumps suits( the M fit will always be found) the difference is that you cannot play in a 43 ruffing with the long trumps. For 44(41) its even worse the only case youre winning is if partner got no M, at least 4 in your 4 card minor and no waste in your stiff. So these hand should probably go reg or puppet stayman.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Nt----2C

2D-----3D (4S/5H GI) not that much an interesting invite. Opener already denied a 4M so the difference between this and bidding 2Nt is your hoping ....

 

-- partner got 3H and that 3H will play better than 2NT.

--that some minimum hand with H fit and S fitting honnor will make 4H while partner would pass if you bid only 2Nt.

--that some medium hand (where you would bid 2Nt and partner will continue to game) that dont mesh well will stop in 3H (fit or no fit)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1Nt----2C

2H----???

 

Instead of playing 3C as a puppet to 3D and 3D as a size ask just play that there both show something and partner holding a dead minimum has to bid 3H.

 

This way you gain space and partner may reavaluate your hand based on your 2 possible "game try/ slammish bid". This is clearly better than what your playing. (not close at all)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Nt----2C

2H----3S as 4315 or 4216.

 

is a bit painful because will have 5H and a medium D holding fairly often. (unless your 3S bid is slammish in wich case game wont go down anyway)

 

I assume that over

1NT----2C

2S

 

its probably worse

----------------------------------------------------

3C-transfer

......3H-diamond slam try

......3S-5/5 minors

......4L-can be used to show 6m4m21s

 

not enough diamonds sequence to my taste. Also where are your m invite ?

 

its ok if there in 2S range ask followed by 3m. But...

 

2S-size ask

......2N-weak

......3C-strong

...........P-club bust

...........3D-short club, 3+M and 4+D

.................suits are bid up the line until a fit is found

...........3H-club slam try

...........3S-balanced slam try, relays for opener's shape

 

-------------------------------------------

Also since your stayman always promise a major im 100% sure its bad to play puppet stayman. Just play a checkback over 1Nt----2C----2M. 3S would fit as a checkback.

 

1Nt-----2C

2M------3S (checkback showing 3 in your M)

??

 

3Nt = not 5H not 4S

4C = 5H max

4D = 4S max

4H = 5H min

4S = 4S min

 

 

This will free up 2Nt wich will greatly patched the holes in your minors one-suiter.

[straube]

I agree with your point about 4441s. They don't have the same slam potential as the 5431s, but they have a little more than a 4432. I'd just as soon keep them with the splinters.

 

I need a place for GI with 4S/6H, thus 1N-2C, 2D-3D. I think that with with most 5-card heart suits, responder will choose to rebid 2N, but responder could certainly judge to play in hearts. For example he could have a 5-card suit with good intermediate cards; opponents might be able to hold up against such a suit in a NT contract.

 

1N-2C, 2H-3S cannot be 4315. A 4315 would splinter immediately (1N-3D) so no, I don't lose the heart fragment. 1N-2C, 2H-3S shows specifically 4-2-1-6.

 

I don't have GI with a minor and I pay less attention to minors than standard. Klinger and Meckwell do the same. Klinger has given up GI with a minor since publishing his book. Here's Meckwell's 2-level structure...

 

2C-stayman promising 4 cards in a major

2D-transfer

2H-transfer

2S-size ask

2N-puppet stayman

 

So you can see it's the same as mine.

 

Both Meckwell and Klinger use puppet stayman. Klinger's puppet stayman starts after 1N-2C, 2D-2N. I basically use his game inquiry. Puppet Stayman is very necessary. It lets us pick up 5-3 major fits and avoid 4333 opposite 4333. It also is one less hand type I have to show because space is very tight. Just to illustrate, my 1N-2C, 2H-3N is actually a spade splinter in support of hearts.

 

What did you have in mind for 1N-2C,2M-3C and 1N-2C, 2M-3D?

[benlessard]

I think Meckwell use 2Nt as puppet stayman as a way to differentiate 4M+5m and 4M+6m or its for the difference between (43)(51) and (41)(53). Im pretty sure their 2Nt is more a relay thing than basically asking for a 5M. You will need to check for this because i dont remeber my source.

 

Keri need a puppet stayman because 2C isnt a stayman.

 

since your showing all unbalanced hand the only hands is 3M and a doubleton somewhere (3244) & 3325. I play puppet and i find that with those hand its best to blast to 3Nt anyway.

 

You give less information and you avoid lead directing. (especially if you have a delayed puppet stayman) wich is an enough compesation for the time partner will have the magical 5 card M that make 4M while 3Nt is going down.

 

As for avoiding 4M with 4333 vs 4333 its a very small target.

 

For 1N-2C,2M-3C and 1N-2C, 2M-3D i think just bidding the 2nd suit (when 4S) and the fragment when H inv.

 

opener responses are

3H minimum

3S not minimum with values in the fragment/2nd suit of responder.

3Nt max but (wasted) values in the unbid suit

4C,4D,4H max with 44 in the M

 

Partner holding 15 pts 3433 QJX of clubs will upragde if you bid 3C and downgrade if you bid 3D.

[straube]

Meckwell's 2N is more than a puppet to 3C. I remember from old notes that opener is allowed to show a 5-card major. I remember the notes didn't show what a 3D rebid would mean and I found that very confusing.

 

Their 1N-2N, 3C-3D shows hearts (same as mine) and their 1N-2N, 3C-3H shows spades (same as mine). The advantage to this is that opener keeps his hand hidden. 1N-2N, 3C is waiting and doesn't confirm or deny a major. Responder shows a major if he has one.

 

I see one of their sequences where responder shows four hearts and then five diamonds at the 4-level. I've experimented with this same sequence (ending at 4m) to show a specific slam invitational 4M5m22. What does it show in Meckwell precisely? I don't know. I would be surprised if it showed any 4M5m because it's up awfully high.

 

Puppet Stayman is an extremely useful part of my structure and I bet it is for Meckwell as well. I like that it creates an immediate GF and keeps the opponents from overcalling cheaply. In fact, I've been able to penalize opponents who strain to get their lead direct in at the 3-level. I like to use it when I have a distributional hand (even a 5m4M31) with marginal values for game such that a 5m contract is unlikely to succeed; when I show shortness, it always tells opener that I have a slightly plus hand...maybe only a queen better than a minimum GF. I'm not sure this is best.

 

I personally would rather play 4M with an 8-card fit with 5332 opposite 4432. With 2N as puppet stayman, I don't have lead direction problems like I might for 2C.

 

I agree that 4333 opposite 4333 is a very small target. 2N gives me slightly more room than I would like, but 3C does not give me enough room, so I have the luxury of trying to avoid the mirrored hand. If I get a better use for 1N-2N, 3D...

 

Meckwell's 3-level bids are apparently...

3C-forces 3D to play or to show strong club hand (and major suit shortness?)

 

this is similar to my 3C transfer only that I use a 3H bid to show a strong diamond hand and don't show shortness until the 4-level. Basically, I leave only enough room at the 3-level to ascertain fit and controls. After 1N-3C, 3D-3H, I have 3S, 3N, and 4C to show medium, bad, and good fitting hands for diamonds.

 

3D-showing good diamond hand and major suit shortness (I read somewhere that it showed 7 diamonds and major suit void, but that can't be right)

 

3H-2-1-5-5

3S-1-2-5-5

 

I combine these with 1N-3C, 3D-3S (though I can divide them by using 1N-3C, 3D-3N, etc)

 

Similar then. But where does Meckwell show 1-2-6-4 and 2-1-4-6? I show them at the 4-level. Arguably, these bids could be collapsed with the 5-5s.

 

Meckwell's 1N-2C, 2M-3C is a puppet to 3D (to show shortness).

 

Same as mine. My recollection of their notes is that the 3C bid denies a fit for opener's major and that opener is allowed to break the puppet if he has support for responder's major, too. They might do this because otherwise responder may pass 3D with a weak 4M/6D hand.

 

Meckwell's 1N-2C, 2M-3D is also a puppet to 3H. I think I remember that the old notes say that 3D "wants to show shortness". Of course, I bet they show shortness after the 3C puppet as well.

 

I've kept my 3D as a size ask. But it seems like Meckwell is trying to do some similar things.

 

What I can't figure out is how they differentiate the 5m4M3m1s from the 5m4M3M1s. They don't use splinters presumably.

 

But what do they use 1N-2S, 2N/3C-3L for?

 

I use 1N-2S, 2N/3C-3D as a club splinter. They could use any or all of these bids as splinters. Somehow I think they're doing something different with it.

 

Here's some relevant links.

 

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.b...2281a38eb5fabf6

 

http://bridgefiles.net/pdf/2005-meckstroth-rodwell+notes.pdf

[benlessard]

The example in the bridge group is highly unconvincing. My guess is that the 4D showed solids diamonds but its still a poor sequence.

 

2Nt----3C (no 5M)

3Nt is to play ? or they used a (dangerous) 3S to soff to 3nt ?

 

What about

 

1Nt-----2Nt

3D

 

what the point of showing a 4333 ? IMO much better to wait for the unbalanced to describe and see if the bal hand honor location mesh well.

 

Meckwell's 2N is more than a puppet to 3C

Yes of course i just meant that the primary goal is probably to show responder shape rather than a regular puppet stayman where its to defend yourself against a possible 5M by opener and to better conceal opener hand (wich they do too). It would be nice to see the frequency of their 2NT bid. It will give us an idea of how much "stuff" they put into it.

 

Im also wondering about the range ask approach vs the regular game try with a long minor. These long minors are not that frequent but often partner fit is highly relevent. Maybe they simply blast to 3Nt and keep the 2S for balanced hnads. The idea is that if the minor can run you want to be in 3Nt (minimum or not) and if it doesnt run youll go down in 2Nt 3m anyway.

[rbforster]

Im also wondering about the range ask approach vs the regular game try with a long minor. These long minors are not that frequent but often partner fit is highly relevent. Maybe they simply blast to 3Nt and keep the 2S for balanced hnads. The  idea is that if the minor can run you want to be in 3Nt (minimum or not) and if it doesnt run youll go down in 2Nt 3m anyway.

Regarding the long minor game try, I think it's probably true that 2N and 3N both make or fail together, but I disagree with your comment that 3m will go down too. I would expect 3m would make reasonably often, if only because partner has about invitational strength and you have a 8+ fit.

[dake50]

Play puppet Stayman to control 1N opener's rebid. Now unfolding is not confounded by his 2D,2H,2S cases.

[bigtrain]

Meckwell's 2N is more than a puppet to 3C.  I remember from old notes that opener is allowed to show a 5-card major.  I remember the notes didn't show what a 3D rebid would mean and I found that very confusing.

 

Their 1N-2N, 3C-3D shows hearts (same as mine) and their 1N-2N, 3C-3H shows spades (same as mine).  The advantage to this is that opener keeps his hand hidden.  1N-2N, 3C is waiting and doesn't confirm or deny a major.  Responder shows a major if he has one.

 

1N-2N//3C just denies a 5-card major; 3M shows a 5-card major (3D isn't used)

 

Over 3C, responder's 3M shows 4-cards in the other major; his 3D shows (31)(54)

[straube]

Meckwell's 2N is more than a puppet to 3C.  I remember from old notes that opener is allowed to show a 5-card major.  I remember the notes didn't show what a 3D rebid would mean and I found that very confusing.

 

Their 1N-2N, 3C-3D shows hearts (same as mine) and their 1N-2N, 3C-3H shows spades (same as mine).  The advantage to this is that opener keeps his hand hidden.  1N-2N, 3C is waiting and doesn't confirm or deny a major.  Responder shows a major if he has one.

 

1N-2N//3C just denies a 5-card major; 3M shows a 5-card major (3D isn't used)

 

Over 3C, responder's 3M shows 4-cards in the other major; his 3D shows (31)(54)

That sounds right. I've wondered what they do with (31)(54). What then does the auction 1N-2N, 3C-3D, 3H-4D show?

[bigtrain]

Nothing - responses to 3H only go through 4C

[straube]

bigtrain, do you have meckwell nt notes that you are at liberty to share? I've posted the little I know about it and my notes were an outline that's over 10 years old.

[bigtrain]

sorry, no