Phil Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I'm directing my club game today and I like to kibitz. If I see an irregularity, what are my obligations? Should I wait for the players to call me? I'm not talking about penalty cards and revokes; I'm referring to things like UI. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Generally a bad idea to kibitz while directing. If you see any irregularity as a director, your duty is to take action. Instead, why don't you work on our system notes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Generally a bad idea to kibitz while directing. If you see any irregularity as a director, your duty is to take action. Instead, why don't you work on our system notes... Hehe. I wonder who youre billing the time for this blog post to :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris3875 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I was in a similar situation recently where I saw something, and one of the players "looked" at me but didn't say anything. I asked a senior director about it later and he told me that I needed to wait until I was called before taking any action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadie3 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 As a Kibber you can say nothing. You must wait until one of the players makes it official. From this point on, I am not positive how to proceed because I am not sure you may use what you observed before officially acting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duschek Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I was in a similar situation recently where I saw something, and one of the players "looked" at me but didn't say anything. I asked a senior director about it later and he told me that I needed to wait until I was called before taking any action.I agree, and this is also how TDs work at WBF and EBL events. If they happen to pass by a table when an irregularity occurs, they do not intervene without a player having asked for it. Below the international level, your story illustrates the problem with kibitzing while directing. Players are often unsure whether they should call the TD. In this case, the player looked at you and (wrongly) interpreted your (appropriate) passivity to the effect that calling the TD would not change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) The phrase "in any manner" in Law 81C3 seems to give the TD no choice but to rectify an irregularity of which he becomes aware while kibitzing. It seems to me that advice, however well intentioned, to ignore such an irregularity unless an opponent specifically asks for a ruling is contrary to law. Far better not to put oneself in that position in the first place. Edit: Sadie is correct, it's 81C3. Edited October 23, 2009 by blackshoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadie3 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 It is 81C3 (ACBL 2008)in my law book and the issue is : Are you a director when you are kibitzing? I was told that you were not. Thank you for your take on this. But as soon as you don your official hat, you must act. So in this interpretation, walking by a table would constitute 'official' but sitting at a table would not be. I can understand and relate to 'not seeing' when walking by a table as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 I don't think you can take off your TD hat during a session you're working. Nothing in law suggests it, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH2650 Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 You follow the dictates of Mike Flader in the Chicago Nationals bulletin #3 (P13). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Yeah? Who put him in charge? :P All due respect to Mr. Flader, but he isn't always right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 My take is if you are kibitzing you are not functioning as a director. I agree it's open to interpretation, so it would be hard pressed to say either opinion is "wrong". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Find something else that you like to do instead of kibitzing when you are not actively performing TD duties such as entering scores or giving rulings etc. This will solve the problem of the dual role, and also be more fair to all players. Why should one table have the benefit - or maybe disadvantage, hehe - of having a "resident TD" there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Yeah, Peachy, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. :P If you are hired to direct a game, and you are "not functioning as a director", then you aren't doing the job for which you were hired. Not very professional, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I argue you are never 'functioning as a director' unless they call you, or you are performing some official duty like entering scores. How is kibitzing a bridge table or playing solitaire on your computer (or standing around doing nothing) any different in that regard, as long as you are able to quickly respond to any director calls and keep the game moving? It's nice to say "find something to do" but there isn't always magically something to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianna Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I argue you are never 'functioning as a director' unless they call you, or you are performing some official duty like entering scores. How is kibitzing a bridge table or playing solitaire on your computer (or standing around doing nothing) any different in that regard, as long as you are able to quickly respond to any director calls and keep the game moving? It's nice to say "find something to do" but there isn't always magically something to do! He could learn to knit! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I argue you are never 'functioning as a director' unless they call you, or you are performing some official duty like entering scores. How is kibitzing a bridge table or playing solitaire on your computer (or standing around doing nothing) any different in that regard, as long as you are able to quickly respond to any director calls and keep the game moving? It's nice to say "find something to do" but there isn't always magically something to do! He could learn to knit! :P That's no solution, it doesn't stop him from kibitzing at the same time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 I argue you are never 'functioning as a director' unless they call you, or you are performing some official duty like entering scores. How is kibitzing a bridge table or playing solitaire on your computer (or standing around doing nothing) any different in that regard, as long as you are able to quickly respond to any director calls and keep the game moving? It's nice to say "find something to do" but there isn't always magically something to do! He could learn to knit! :) That's no solution, it doesn't stop him from kibitzing at the same time. :) Sure it would! Learning to knit takes such concentration that he cannot think of anything else! The only persons I know about who can knit while simultaneously attending to other tasks are women experienced in knitting :P :) regards Sven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 John Maddog Probst used to knit while directing, until he had his stroke. He's now a lot better and getting out and about - he even played in a novice duplicate a couple of weeks ago, but I think it'll be some time before his sight is good enough to knit again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 John Maddog Probst used to knit while directing, until he had his stroke. He's now a lot better and getting out and about - he even played in a novice duplicate a couple of weeks ago, but I think it'll be some time before his sight is good enough to knit again.OK, that is one male in addition to those women I had in mind. :) :) And BTW, although I do not know John, this is an option for me to ask you forward my regards and get well message. regards Sven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 He could learn to knit! :) Sure, like Becky Clough...:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echognome Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 John Maddog Probst used to knit while directing, until he had his stroke. He's now a lot better and getting out and about - he even played in a novice duplicate a couple of weeks ago, but I think it'll be some time before his sight is good enough to knit again. Am sorry to hear he had a stroke, but happy to hear he is recovering. John is one of the funnest TD's around. When I was living in England, I would play the first Sunday teams with John every Brighton and we had an awesome record. The first time I met him at Brighton, he wasn't sure he wanted to play with me. He looked at my convention card at the time and said "anyone that plays a mini NT at all vulnerabilities is mad enough to play with me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Ok, we are talking about Club game here. It is easy to say the Director shouldn't kibitz. Consider some thoughts about this, which might go against strict protocol. The Director at a club game is often a teacher as well. It might be in the best overall interests of the membership for him to watch live play and use real hands as teaching tools--especially if he can do this and still keep up with other duties. Maybe before sitting down as a kibitzer, the Director should mention he is a kibitzer, and that the players still need to call for him if they need him. P.S., I think Becky also knits while driving, sleeping, and eating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Good to hear Mad Dog is doing well. Your job is to direct. If you decide to kibitz, and also that you will not "direct" in any case where you are kibitzing unless the players explicitly ask you to do so, then you are not doing your job. I suppose if you tell the players "if something happens, and you want me to rule on it, you must assume I did not see it and explicitly ask for a ruling" that would mitigate the failure, but it seems to me a poor way to do your job. Around here, if a teacher wants "real hands" to use as teaching aids, all he needs to do is to grab a hand record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcw Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Are you seriously suggesting you are going to scrutinize 1 table and subject them to your interpretation of UI. What about the other tables?. This seems wacko to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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