Takeout Doubles

[Tcyk]

Recently, holding 4=4=3=2 shape and 15 HCP including the doubleton ♣ King. My right hand opponent opened 1D, ! doubled, LHO bid 1H, partner bid 1S. The opening bidder rebid 2D; all pass.

 

My partner said I should have raised his spades and I said I did not think I had enough extra values to raise them. He ask how he was supposed to know I had spade support and I told him I doubled and you were showing spade support. He actually had 6 spades and he could make 4S. I told him that I thought it was up to him to rebid spades.

 

Is it really possible that I should have bid my values twice and raised his spades? I see this done quite often on BBO but it is contray to what I have been taught.

[babalu1997]

the takeout does not mean 4 sapdes, or 4 in both majors for mnay poepl

 

i think 2 sapdes is good, you need to force opps to the 3 level, you were 15 at the top of your double

[aguahombre]

Partner chose to bid opposite your t/o double in a live auction. A 2S raise by you in competition should not show a mountain. I might even suggest that it doesn't even show the 15 count.

[jjbrr]

Both of you should have bid more, regardless of partner's strength or what your hand actually was.

 

Partner freely bid 1♠, thus suggesting some strength. 15 points and 4♠ make raising clear.

 

Partner, with 6♠ should bid more than 1♠ for sure at some point in the auction. If he's got few HCPs, he should bid 3♠ the first time. If not, there's no reason he shouldn't bid 2♠ or even 3♠ at his second opportunity.

[jdonn]

You have a little bit extra, four spades where you might have three, and your partner bid freely. You just have to compete.

 

Think of it this way. If your partner has 6, you have 15, and you have a 4-4 spade fit, it's clear with over half the deck you want to compete to the 2 level. You feel you have already bid your hand, but your partner has already bid his, and someone has to do it! You're the only one who knows for sure there is an 8 card spade fit, so it's your responsibility.

 

Your partner should surely have competed again with 6 spades as well (or even done more the first time), but considering you make 4♠ and stopped at 1♠ it's not very surprising that both players underbid.

[ArtK78]

The classic definition of a takeout double is support for all of the unbid suits and opening bid strength. So, by classical standards, if that is what you have, you don't have to bid again to show it. Also, by classical standards, a raise (even in competition) shows extras - typically about a 16 count.

 

If you have been reading these fora, you will find that the modern definition of a takeout double is almost any hand which has values and wants to get in the auction. Often, the support for the unbid suits will be honor third (or even less). So, it is not surprising to find that when players make takeout doubles and actually have good four-card support for their partner, they will raise even without any "extras."

 

I follow a middle ground. I try to avoid having "flawed" takeout doubles, but I will not wait around for a "classic" takeout double. And, with several partners, I have an agreement that a raise by the takeout doubler is obligatory with four-card support - therefore, it shows no extras.

 

Employing classical standards, you should not bid again with your hand after doubling. That responsibility rests solely on your partner. As a practical matter, you and your partner may want to adopt a more "modern" treatment of how to handle takeout doubles.

[Jlall]

You are thinking on the right terms, you never want to bid the same values twice. That is a great lesson that you have learned.

 

Your error is thinking that you have shown your values.

 

15 is more than you might have, you might even have 12 with the same shape! That's a full king extra.

 

Also, you have a 4th spade. You might have 3 spades. Your 4th spade is an extra, you haven't shown it yet.

 

So you have a king extra and an extra trump. That is certainly enough to bid 2S, since you do have those extras that you haven't shown.

 

Your partner on the other hand was out to lunch for not bidding 2S at least!

[barmar]

If LHO hadn't bid, you might be correct not to compete. Partner would have shown no values, and you have a poor holding in opener's suit.

 

But when partner bids over 1♥, he's showing that he has some values. Not a lot, since he didn't jump to 2♠, but probably 6-8 HCP (maybe a little less with compensating shape). Since you have good support for him, and your side has at least half the points in the deck, you definitely should compete.

 

But even so, your partner should definitely rebid a 6-card suit, maybe even jump to the 3 level to show the extra length.

[ggwhiz]

I would bid 1s over 1h on KJ10x and out, just to set the defence.

 

IMO, it's a law of total tricks situation and if I was your pard, with 6 spades opposite at least 3, would never stop bidding them, especially when the opps are trying to put on the brakes.

 

I would also bid 2s directly over 2d. I know we have a minimum 8 card fit and enough two-way strength in my hand (offence and defence) to contest. When pard hears my 2s bid (now knows I don't have only 3) and has 6 of them, the opps are NOT playing 3d let alone 2d. Probably not 4d either, unless smashed.

[nigel_k]

In your example you both should have bid more. But there is no easy rule that applies to this situation. It depends on:

 

1) whether partner bids freely or was forced to bid because your LHO passed

2) whether your RHO passes, bids a new suit or raises his partner

3) whether you are raising from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3

4) whether you are raising a minor or a major

 

And possibly other factors. Experts would probably mostly agree on what you need to raise but it's hard to describe what that is in every situation.

 

What I would suggest is generate some hands using a computer where there is an opening bid followed by a takeout double and your side has at least half the high cards (or maybe a bit less). Then either bid the hands with your partner or each separately write down how you think the auction should go. Then analyze the hands and reach agreement that way.

 

The book on takeout doubles by Mike Lawrence is also a good reference.

[Tcyk]

There are some really great answers to my post. I guess I am just old fashioned. The answer is to have a partnership agreement. Today I fell victim of this kind of bidding again. The auction went:

 

1S X(by partner) Pass 2H

2S 2NT ... and with 7 HCP including the king of spades, I raised him to 3NT ... down 3.

 

I expected my partner to have 19-21 HCP. He had 12 and only two small hearts. He did have a spade stopper. His hand wasn't even good enough for an immediate 1NT call much less double and call NT.

 

These are some bridge adages that I have learned.

 

1. Trust your partner. That includes never lying to your partner.

 

2. Support support. If you can support your partner, do so.

 

3. Bridge is a partnership game. Don't be a hand hog

 

Both partners on these hands were pick-up partners with whom I had never played before. The first partner was from Norway and claimed to be an expert. The 2NT bidder was from Turkey and said he was an intermediate.

 

I think I should probably modify my thinking just a little. Double and bid a NEW suit shows a hand with strength equivalent to a reverse. Double and raise partner is competitive. I still think double and NT should show 19-21 HCP and secure stoppers in the opponents suit. Double and cue bid still shows the monster hand.

[Jlall]

X and 2N shows a hand too strong to overcall 2N in normal bridge. A 12 count with a doubleton heart is not a takeout double, and shouldn't be bidding again anyways.

[ggwhiz]

I am also a fan of Mike Lawrence materials on this subject as well as Marty Bergen.

 

Maybe we should ask pick-up partners what bridge authors they have read? Ask if they know what a Fishbein double is too and if they do, you can expect some insane bidding as above.