Vugraph "technical" (?!?!?) comments

[Rain]

My hunch is that the original poster's reaction is probably due to the

fact that he can no longer impart his pearls of wisdom on innocent

commentators.

 

 

 

Chamaco was being nice. I found this offensive too, and was contemplating deleting/editing. Kind of past the point though.

 

 

Rain

[inquiry]

Let me see if I can address the censorship (and why it wasn't applied) questions raised here.

 

First, to nikos's point about Chamaco's statement about "In the match france against someone else, might well have been italy, I got...err... nerved of the commentators of having no idea of bridge nor the real world..

 

Here Chamaco did not name names. Sure, maybe that match had only one or two commentators (I have no idea), and maybe someone could figure out who he was talking about. However, clearly such comments will not raise the ire of anyone nor, in general humilate anyone. And besides, we all know that such statements are untrue, since commentators are handpicked because of their bridge experience in the real world.

 

Next to Rona's comment about why nikos' comment, "My hunch is that the original poster's reaction is probably due to the fact that he can no longer impart his pearls of wisdom on innocent commentators."

 

This is a different kettle of fish. We all know who nikos was talking about, it was Chamaco. If I had seen that comment BEFORE Chamaco replied to it, I would have deleted it from Nikos post. The reason to do so, is to prevent potential battles (flame wars). However, one can't always be here reading the post, and Chamaco's reply was more than adequate, using nikos's statement to clarify his position. So nikos's statement lead to an improvement in the thread rather than to any immediate problems. Therefore I did not edit the original post. If on the other hand, Chamaco had responded in a different way to the the comment, both his response and nikos's comments would have been removed.

 

Now, as you can see, my fellow moderator (rain), has stepped in and made a comment. She agrees that nikos's comments were "rude" and she considered taking some action. But even then, it wasn't clear to her that action needed to be taken ("was contemplating ") because this is not quite a clear cut case needing censorship.

 

Ben

[fred]

Ben - I think you and Rain are doing a great job.

 

Thanks :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[anssibragge]

Please, do not credit Chamaco with partly offensive material that I posted.

 

He did not talk about the France-Italian match, it was me.

 

abe

[Chamaco]

Let me see if I can address the censorship (and why it wasn't applied) questions raised here.

 

First, to nikos's point about Chamaco's statement about "In the match france against someone else, might well have been italy, I got...err... nerved of the commentators of having no idea of bridge nor the real world..

 

Here Chamaco did not name names.

I did not write that statement.

It was written by a different poster after my post.

--------------------

 

 

Oh ok, I just saw ansibragge mentioned this and I thank him.

[cherdano]

I am grateful to all the commentators donating their time (and everyone else involved in the Vuegraphs; esp. to Roland Wald for organizing the commentators team, and to Fred for his lobbying to get Vuegraphs be free when they were still restricted to pay sites most of the time -- I really think this is a big success for bridge).

 

I think the vuegraph comments are really good overall, but I also think that they could be better. This is not criticism, but I assume that the commentators are themselves interested in getting the most out of the time they donate to promoting bridge.

 

I think most commentators have now disabled private chat (which I can understand very well), which means there is very little feedback to the commentators. When commentators were still accepting private messages, I would sometimes try to ask them bridge questions, not expecting any personal reply, but to try to give them a hint what might be interesting to talk about. Often they would pick this up and discuss it in the public chat. I suppose a lot of stuff seems obvious to them, and they won't see that there is an issue to explain to us bridge mortals.

 

Two points:

1. Not that the cokes and stuff aren't fun, but I would really encourage the commentators to talk about technical bridge aspects. Even if the one team is up by 20 IMPs, I am still interested to hear how declarer should play the trump suit in his rock solid "boring" 4S to maximize the chances for an overtrick. And if every line will work because trumps split 2-2 I am still interested in how declarer SHOULD play the contract. Etc. We are watching the vuegraphs because we are interested in bridge after all, don't assume we will be bored by technical aspects.

 

2. Why not enable public chat for one or two non-experts every session? Their "job" would be to ask questions that they would think are interesting to the audience. They could also remain open to private chat and relay interesting questions other people have. Since they don't have to analyze the hand at the same time, they should have less problems to cope with a flood of incoming messages. I would certainly volunteer to take this job occasionally when I am watching anyway.

 

Others have proposed technical solutions, but this one could be used immediately.

[Chamaco]

Cherdano has expressed even better than myself my overall feelings and ideas.

I agree 100% with this post.

[uday]

The other day, the Senior trials popped into being with only a very little advance notice.

While scrambling for commentators, I thought i'd try it myself, since it seemed kind of easy, and I'm not a terrible analyst when all 52 cards are visible.

 

All I'll say now is that it is not as easy as it looks, not even close. I'm not saying this to squelch criticism, just making an observation. I felt a lot of pressure to make clever remarks the moment 52 cards popped into view, i had no idea what systems they were playing, I had no idea whether to address my remarks to intermediates or advanced players. Plus, it was kind of scary, a little like real "pubic speaking"

 

Where can we go to learn how to do online commentary well?

[Chamaco]

The other day, the Senior trials popped into being with only a very little advance notice.

While scrambling for commentators, I thought i'd try it myself, since it seemed kind of easy, and I'm not a terrible analyst when all 52 cards are visible.

 

All I'll say now is that it is not as easy as it looks, not even close.   I'm not saying this to squelch criticism, just making an observation.  I felt a lot of pressure to make clever remarks the moment 52 cards popped into view, i had no idea what systems they were playing, I had no idea whether to address my remarks to intermediates or advanced players.   Plus, it was kind of scary, a little like real "pubic speaking"

 

Where can we go to learn how to do online commentary well?

Uday, I do understand your point.

 

About the issue you mention I'll just say that:

I prefer anyone (even a non-expert) who at least tries an analysis of the hand, even if the analysis is wrong, to an expert who gets bored about the hand and talks of something else (or only superficially of the hand).

 

In my opinion anyone who tries hard to do his best deserves praise, regardless of the technical quality of the result.

 

On the other hand, being an expert does not necessarily mean being an experienced commentator: indeed, not every expert may have in mind what the audience like to hear or not.

 

These suggestions should be viewed - in my opinion - just as feedback, so that every commentator can see what some BBO players would like to hear.

Then, of course, they will decide on their own how to handle the chronicle.

[nikos59]

Well said, Uday -and perhaps we would add the fact

that very many commentators are not using their

mother tongue when commentating, which makes

the task appreciably more difficult.

 

Still, there are always some esteemed users who

will insist that some commentators have no idea

of bridge and of the real world in general. Perhaps

BBO would consider offering to them the chance

to commentate -I am sure that we would all get

a good laugh.

n

[Chamaco]

Still, there are always some esteemed users who

will insist that some commentators have no idea

of bridge and of the real world in general.

I hope you do not refer to myself.

But as usual, I take your posts as an occasion to clarify my ideas rather than start unpleasant discussions:

 

I never said the commentators have no idea of bridge.

I would rather say that - for me - the opposite is frustrating : when a commentator who indeed has good technical skill starts to talk of non technical issues neglecting details that would be of interest to players like me.

 

I assume from your posts that you did not happen to watch vugraphs with such type of comments, but I guarantee you it happened to me.

[cherdano]

Another point: I wonder whether it is really worth doing 6-8 tables of vuegraph at the same time. As I can watch only one at the time, I would rather have all of the excellent commentators concentrated on the table I watch :-) (or, heaven, Roland could even give them a few more breaks to take a rest during a long tourney :)).

The only reason I can see for doing more tables at a time are:

1) Having both tables of a team match being shown means we can get detailed comparisons, which is both fun and interesting.

2) When some of the tables provide commentary in a different language.

3) So that a spectator can choose to watch the players he personally finds most interesting/he is rallying for/play for his countries.

 

I think we all like 1), but personally I don't care about 2) (although I am not a native English speaker) and 3). If everybody thought like me, two tables at a time plus one or two for each additional language (until the software can separate the chat according to language) would be enough.

 

What do others think about that?

[Cascade]

I think you underestimate the parochial natural of the users. There are many many people who want to watch their own country play.

 

I field many questions like "When are Turkey on vugraph?", "Is the Sweden Demark game on tonight?" etc etc

[Chamaco]

i agree with cascade.

There are so many communities on BBO with different interests.

Diversity is a plus :)

[Gerardo]

I like Cherdano's idea, of havink a "link" between commentators and audience.

Yellows can currently do this, but it would be a valuable position on itself, if taken by right person.

But think it would be better if said link could adress all commentators privately, and denied talking to audience. Maybe a commentator can take the role, but better to keep the abilities separate.

 

(I know, directed to audience a few comments before, by mistake. Will happen again, I'm sure). So the less people with that ability, the better.

 

Can even introduce new things, which commentators didn't see yet, from him/herself, or from the audience. (happened before, will happen again, albeit rarely)

[Dwayne]

Give these guys a break.

 

I've read through all 39 replies thus far to Cheech's original post and if I get his right, you (collectively):

 

- either like the frivolous chat or don't like it

- find the jokes amusing or don't

- want the commentators to stick to technical comment only or not

- like some commentators or dislike them.

- others you dislike or alternatively like.

 

Hmm.. seems you can't please all of the people all of the time.

 

No wait...we can. [lightbulb illuminates]. Instead of having say:

Closed Room: English language commentary

Open Room: Italian Commentary (or other by design)

 

We encourage Roland to set up the Vugraph as:

Closed Room: Serious, Dry Commentary only (max 2 non-technical comments per board)

Open Room: Laff-a-minute. Warning: Commentators may discuss private lives.

 

That should do it. Suit me too.

 

Dwaynold Duck.

Planet Bollywood.

[nikos59]

Still, there are always some esteemed users who

will insist that some commentators have no idea

of bridge and of the real world in general.

I hope you do not refer to myself.

 

 

No -someone else said in this thread that on a

particular match recently transmitted there were

two commentators that had no idea of bridge and

of the real world. This offending post apparently

was considered kosher because it did not insult

noone personally.

As to the rest, my own view is that my gratitude

towards BBO and the commentators is so immense

that I consider it improper to criticize commentators

-you know perhaps the proverb about looking a

gift horse in the mouth.

[Dwayne]

Nikos, I too saw the original comment that said:

 

In the match france against someone else, might well have been italy, I got...err... nerved of the commentators of having no idea of bridge nor the real world.

 

but quite frankly didn't think it worthy of a response.

 

Perhaps the original author would like to cite examples where commentators demonstrably had "no idea of the real world".

 

Take your time.

 

Dwayne-offski.

Table 14, Lake Titicaca.

[aisha759]

What does +++ stand for? (i have seen it in a few profiles) How is a normal vugraph spectator supposed to know what those plusses stand for?

A little humour here and there does no harm whatsoever IMHO.......I have nothiced (as an avid vugraph kibber) that a lot of the commentators are coke addicts :ph34r: I just hope they are betting on the classic one :o

I would personally bet on something a bit more substantial(like cash), but to each is own :P

I have seen a lot of illuminating comments, and a few not so inspiring...

 

I have abstained from asking commentators any questions because they are busy, and i respect that.

 

Still, very much appreciate and enjoy the experience :(

 

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHING PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

 

Aisha

[Cascade]

Aisha

 

By default commentators cannot hear private messages directed to them. If they do not mind hearing those messages then they can add +++ to their profile.

 

Yellow commentators can receive comments by default. I receive many and reply to most and use some to inform the audience e.g. Someone told me of a brilliant potential false card last night.

 

I know I make a number of not inspiring comments it is so easy to make a blunder. Sometimes it seems easier than when one is playing.

 

I hope I make at least some illuminating comments.

[Erkson]

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHING PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

Here people don't complain about everything but about a problem perfectly expressed by Chamaco in his original post, which some agree with -I am one of them- and other disagree.

 

For me his post had yet a result : vacuous chitchat has disappeared lately, consecutively comments' quality has improved. I hope that it won't be forgotten fast. If so I hope he will post again.

 

Erkson

[aisha759]

I did not in anyway want to belittle the problem which was presented in this thread, "stop complaining people" was out of line, I admit :ph34r:

 

Many of these commentators seem to be good friends and enjoy a common sense of humour, and some inside jokes. Many still do a wonderful job whilst joking..

 

Cascade, thank you for the info on what +++ means....

 

Language is a barrier for some, hence the comments which puzzle some viewers.

 

It is a good thread, and worth the discussion and the ideas presented, I apologize if i have offended anyone.....

 

Regards,

 

Aisha

[slothy]

Hi Guys & Gals,

 

I feel i have an insatiable itch to comment here :o.

 

This, by the way, impinges not only on the dynamics of VuGraph commentary, but on other things that have been discussed in this forum, with a few people having particularly strong views about what people EXPECT and what people believe they have some right not to have to tolerate or be subjected to, and one of the reasons why my posting-rate has dropped (besides being busier than usual :ph34r: )

 

I find it difficult to appreciate what the actual complaint is, however legitimately they are expressing it: people seem to want to suggest that they are NOT complaining but, in my mind, there is a distinct and tangible undercurrent of dissatisfaction advocated by some people with the status quo; some more vociferous than others and others just wanting to point out nicely and diplomatically recommendations for improvement of what they see as not up to scratch.

 

And if there is a dissatisfaction, what proposal do people have for its resolution??? This to me is the hardest rub!! Dwayne's proposal (the best in my opinion)?

 

I will try to put this in context:

 

The other week, i had my first 5th Chair mentoring session.

 

It was extremely difficult to:

 

1) concentrate on the game at hand AS WELL AS

2) attempt to provide some sort of meaningful real-time dialogue as to the bidding - before the hand was played- and to the play of the hand as the hand progressed AS WELL AS

3) have to reply to a few messages sent to me by friends during the session.

 

What was even more challenging was that i felt there was a certain level of expectation on my part to provide it. Luckily, more because of the character, and her insistence, of my mentee than anything else, the pressure on me to fulfil this commentatorial function eased and I was made to feel more comfortable expressing myself, alongside peppering it with perhaps worthwhile comments, and this, hopefully made it more enjoyable, more fun and perhaps anything that i did say that had some instructional merit stood out more: more because there was less pressure on me rather than her feeling that she was learning less!!!!.

 

As to whether it was more instructional than if we hadnt 'changed tack' (or whether it was instructional at all hee hee) is another matter.

 

OK, now take this scenario above and EXPLODE it exponentially: SUDDENLY

1)You dont have an audience of ONE but ONE THOUSAND.

2)You are not the sole commentator but competing for window space with 4 other people. You start writing something and another person writes what you are in the process of writing (grrrr). The pressure to say something is there e.g. the 'I've started so i'll finish' syndrome.

3) You have a small posse of ego-bloated people in the audience who contradict an analytical comment you made in good faith and want you to know you are wrong, and insist that you have acknowledged their amazing and wise insight.

4) You are not teaching someone a system you are familiar with but are commenting on one, or a couple, of systems that you may only have a cursory appreciation of and are inscribed in a system portfolio that has more chapters than the Bible.

5) The level of expectation and technical merit of what you are writing is under constant scrutiny.

 

I am basically paraphrasing what Uday said in his post just perhaps a bit more dramatically. (so you can point the finger at him if you disagree with what i am saying :P )

 

Taking these 'pressures' above, you want:

1) the commentators to be focussed

2) fully alert

3) not make aside comments (or only when it is 'fit')

4) make meaningful and insightful comments about strategy and recommended lines of play 'on the fly' (not forgetting that a human can only bash the keyboard so many times a minute [never mind trying to find where the 'y' is on the keyboard] and the cards are played at a pace that may make a particular comment subsequently obselete and irrelevant)

5) predict the bidding sequence and play of the cards at the expense of being pilloried if they get it wrong???

 

AND for people who are doing this voluntarily and in their own time?????

 

For those who want to complain: I think you should try it. In fact offer your services to 5th Chair and, IMVHO, you will soon change your tune.

 

As for the coke comments :( that my next point. But not now gotta run.

 

Alex

[EarlPurple]

- I'd like to see rooms where anyone can make comments. I think it would be great.

 

- Yes, many commentators do do a good job and put a lot of effort in, but in many ways they are "priveleged".

 

- Different commentators have different styles. Perhaps there could be different rooms for the same games, or different channels. That way you could also have the "public chat" channel for anyone who is not among the elite. And yes, the one thing that can make watching the game most painful for me is having a comment to make but being unable to make it.

[anssibragge]

I'm watching currently Bulgaria - Poland on the BBO, and we have 3 active commentators; Dinos1, Szalay and Barnets (tho he's not that active).

 

None of the have +++ in the profile. We do have one yellow in the room, I messaged him if he'd be kind to bring this to the commentators, but as usual, nothing has happened in the last 10 mins. Well, I, as a yellow might be 10 minutes away fetching a beer and sending a message to the multimedia network... :D

 

Anyway. Have the commentators been "qualified" somehow in the games, "invited" or just "good we'd have you around this time"?

 

Can any yellow comment as an commentator? Or any Star player?

 

abe