system in the making

[luke warm]

there's a thread concerning some ideas mikestar had... now i don't know whether or not this already exists but it does seem playable... some of the specifics (ie, 2 way ckback vs. some transfer sequence, etc) might need to be hammered out, but basically this is it

 

all flat hands are opened with either 1nt, 1c, or 1d... (for me 1nt is 10-12 so 1c shows 16-18 after 1c/1x/1nt or 21, 22 after 1c/1x/2nt, and 1d is 13-15 after 1d/1x/1nt and 19, 20 after 1d/1x/2nt).. this means even 5M332 hands are opened 1nt or 1c or 1d first.. anyway, here's an example from today's vugraph, chagas/villas boas sitting n/s

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=saqj62h97dk92ca64&w=st73hq86dq54ckq82&e=sk94hjtdaj6cj9753&s=s85hak5432dt873ct]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♠    Pass  1NT

 Pass  2♣    Pass  2♦

 Pass  2♥    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

 

with this system, the bidding would be:

1d : 1h

1nt : 2c (invitational ckback)

2d : 3h

pass

 

yes, they got to 2h anyway, making 3, but i don't see the downside to this.. on this particular hand, 1nt passed out *might* end up inferior to the field's 2s, if the hands warranted that and if the bidding had gone that way, but then maybe it wouldn't have

 

anyway, a part of me really likes this approach and i'd appreciate any 'holes' y'all can find in it (knowing ahead of time that all systems have holes).. thx

[mikestar]

I given this sytem idea some further thought. If you make 1C forcing, you can handle all of the 21+ balanced hands with 1C. This not only frees 2N for preemptive use, but allows 2C to guarantee an unbalanced hand. A response of 1D will be 0-5, but might go higher with no major.

 

1m-1M-1N and 1D-1M-2N sequences will develop exactly as if this change hadn't been made.

 

1C-1M-2N is a game force with 21+ balanced. Responder will need a range ask as well as checkback.

 

1C-1D-1N is 16-18, but we won't need checkback--if responder has major suit length, he is too weak for a game invitaition. Opener is not required to bid 1N over 1D, he can bid a 4 or 5 card major at the one level to try to get out cheaper.

 

Rebids from 2H upwards artificailly show a balanced hand.

[luke warm]

what are the objections to:

 

1c : 2d or 1c : 2h, and

1d : 2h or 1d : 2s

 

both being reverse flannery.. the first jump (1c:2d or 1d:2h) showing 0-7 hcp and the 2nd jump (1c:2h or 1d:2s) showing 8-11 or so?

 

also, since so much (in my mind anyway) seems tied to the 1nt ranges, how bout not vul being 10-12 and vul or 4th seat being 12-14? the exact ranges aren't important, but they need to be known so that the 1m/rebid 1(2)nt ranges can be known

[keylime]

Jimmy-ster,

 

We use the Meckwell flavor of Reverse Flannery over our catchall diamond opening. Found that it works pretty good in getting to the right strain of contract. :)

 

With the NTs, we use this:

 

10-12 nv, 1st-3rd

14-16 vul, all seats

12-14, 4th seat, regardless.

 

For IMP play we use this:

 

10-12, nv vs. vul

13-15, equal vul

14-16, vul vs. nv

12-14, 4th seat regardless.

[luke warm]

thx dwayne... any reason you don't use reverse flannery after 1C? you need 2D/2H for some other reason?

 

the idea mike had, and the one i've been thinking on, involves opening balanced hands with 1C or 1D and rebidding some level of nt, dependent upon the 1nt strength... so every different range you showed would need a corresponding 1/2 nt rebid range for 1C/1D (which isn't bad, just a fact)

 

i like 10-12, 13 just fine.. i'd probably play it all the time ('cept in 4th), except most partners i've had seem to get depressed with the occasional zip code that rolls in :)

[inquiry]

This has some similarities to ETM Victory, their 1NT is 11-14, i think. Where your proposal falls down I believe is that you put too big a range on your notrump rebids. When you start with three bids at the one level for balanced hands (and possibly have 2NT and 2C/2NT auctions as well, if you like), you should be able to narrow the range of your NT rebids. This is a big advantage in ETM victory, each auction narrows the NT rebids to 2HCP ranges.

 

This doesn't sound like much of a difference, but with a two hcp range, you remove the need for "invitational auctions". Rebids become either forcing or signoff. A look at your meithod might suggest the following...

 

1NT = 10-12 (ok we allow 3 pts here)

1C-then-1NT = 15-16

1D - then 1NT = 13-14

1C = then 2NT = 17 -18

1D - then 2NT = 19 -20

2NT = 21 -22

2C then 2NT = 23-24

 

Anyway, have fun with it, and if you haven't read ETM victory, maybe you should before you re-invent the wheel. ETM Victory

[luke warm]

thx ben, excellent idea (about reinventing the wheel)... i'll go take a look now... i do prefer the 2 point ranges, i was trying to save the 2nt bid for something else, maybe minors...

[blahonga]

Just a small comment:

 

After a 1C opening that is either natural or contains two no-trump ranges I like to play transfers. For example:

 

1C - 1D (4+ hearts)

and now

1H = 11-13 bal, no support

1N = 17-19 bal

2N = 15+, either 6+ clubs and 3 hearts or 5+ clubs and 4+ hearts

3D = 17-19 bal with 4 hearts

 

and everything else as normal

 

After 1C - 1H you get similar rebids.

The 1S response can be used as a normal 1N response to to 1club, but you can also include some strong hands, for example GF with 5+ diamonds and a four card major.

 

1C - 1N shows 11-13

 

The main advantage is that you can respond lighter to 1 club, and that you don't jump to 2NT with you strong balanced hands. You can use your normal checkback structure after the 1NT rebid showing 17-19

 

/Mattias

[luke warm]

thx blahonga... if 1c is forcing, what response do you use to show a bust?

 

ben, the etm structure looks nice, and i think i can use it and keep 2 point nt ranges by just abandoning the mini and playing 12-14 in all seats, all the time

 

1c=17,18 or 21,22 or natural

1d=15,16 or 19,20 or natural

2nt=minors

3c=gambling 3nt in any suit

3nt=4 level minor preempt

4c/d=namyats

4h/s=same but weaker

[Free]

Imo you don't need 2-point ranges for the 1NT rebids because you can still invite. However, when you're at 2NT and show a 3-point range it might go wrong. So why not:

1♣ 17-18 or 21-22

1♦ 14-16 or 19-20

1NT 10-13

This way you can keep your favorite 1NT range :D

 

However, in this configuration, I'd swap the meanings for 1♣ and 1♦:

1♣ 14-16 or 19-20

1♦ 17-18 or 21-22

1NT 10-13

Because after a 1♣ opening you have more chance to rebid 1NT.

[luke warm]

with that structure would you make either 1c or 1d forcing for one round? my first instinct is to say no, but to allow responder to respond a tad weaker than normal

[Free]

1♣ is easily made forcing, so why not? :)

[blahonga]

thx blahonga... if 1c is forcing, what response do you use to show a bust?

Within this structure I don't play it as forcing, so no help to you there :-) I think it might be difficult to sort out responders strength if he is supposed to use the 1D, 1H and 1S answers even with zero points.

 

/Mattias

[mishovnbg]

with that structure would you make either 1c or 1d forcing for one round? my first instinct is to say no, but to allow responder to respond a tad weaker than normal

Use response structure of Fantoni-Nunes system - 1/1 = 0-9HCP, NF. Because of your limited openings you can pass also in some cases, instead of bid for example 1NT after 1♦ opening. Forcing response with 10+hcp on 1♣ will be 1NT, on 1♦ - 2♣.

Misho

[MickyB]

How about...

 

1♣ 14+, either primary ♣ or bal. Optionally including any game forcing hand too. Transfer responses, with completing the transfer showing one bal range and a 1NT bid showing another. When playing this I used two-way checkback after

1♣:1♦, 1♥.

 

1♦ is now natural unbal, a big improvement. Can be 5C4D 11-13.

 

1NT 10-13 - if you believe that opening 1NT is that big an advantage, I think you should extend the range by a point. It matters less on the lower ranges anyway (10-13 is less likely to give you an awkward decision than 15-18).

 

2♣ Precision style, 6C or 5C4M, 10-13.

 

So you get a natural 1♦ opener and, if you want it, a forcing 1♣ opener that doesn't cause too much overbidding. The only weak point that I've found, besides the slightly dodgy 2♣ opener, is that you have trouble showing big bal hands after 1♣:1♠ (showing either diamonds or no 4 card major, depending on the scheme).

[luke warm]

mickey, one of the reasons i'm looking at this is because 1c or 1d can be 11+ natural bids, in addition to the balanced strong hands... this, on the face of it, seems to make intervention less likely.. by how much, i don't know

 

misho, i do like that idea... 1c : 1any is nf but natural.. yes, i like that

[MickyB]

I don't think 1♣ as 14+ ♣ or bal suffers too much from interference. Opener has already given a lot of info about your distribution - Opener will be balanced a lot of the time (over 70%) so I think it may work well to make responder's double optional. Opener now passes if bal/defensive unbal, and bids on with an offensive unbal (singleton/some doubletons in their suit). If he does bid on, he has shown his 2 suiter very accurately (it will usually be 5431 or similar) or his 6 card club suit.

 

Your short minors, on the other hand, will suffer some problems, with or without interference. Many consider the nebulous Precision 1♦ opener to be more of a weak point than the strong 1♣ opener and unlike your suggested 1♣ and 1♦ openers, that has the benefit of being limited.

[luke warm]

thanks micky, i appreciate your comments... i finally read thru all of the etm stuff ben directed me to (but it'll take more than one reading and quite a bit of study)... i like a lot of its ideas, but i can't see the advantage of playing the nt sequences as they suggest, compared to the system i now play

 

i do like 1c being alerted as "11-22 hcp, 2+ clubs" ... the 1nt rebid is then "17, 18 balanced" and the 2nt rebid is "21, 22 balanced" ... after 1nt rebid, 2 way ckback and after 2nt either wolff or puppet (leaning toward puppet)... and the more i think about it, the more i like 1d being "11-20 hcp, 2+ diamonds" with 1nt rebid being "15, 16 balanced" and 2nt "19, 20 balanced"... this leaves 2nt free and lets 2c become 23+ or something

 

i like misho's (re: fantoni/nunes) responses to 1c, but think i need to work on responses to 1d... i want to avoid responder bidding 1nt if possible

[mishovnbg]

Hi Luke!

 

Why 1/1 NF? -> Because with weak range of NT you will pass (yes, even with doubleton) and 1NT rebid show stronger range of NT. This way rebid show unbalanced hand (1♠ rebid contain also stronger range of NT with 4♠).

 

What to bid after 1♦ opening? ->Good continuation doesn't exist. Like after 1NT opening you can play many schemes, all of them bad. Depending of what you most like to sacrifice, you can choose one or invent next bad one :D.

 

Misho