surveyor`slevel

[H_KARLUK]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saq6hk873dj5c7432]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Uncontested

1♠            2♠

4♥(void)   ?

[billw55]

4♠ as fast as I can get the card on the table. The K♥ is now worthless.

[HeavyDluxe]

4♠ as fast as I can get the card on the table. The K♥ is now worthless.

THIS.

[dicklont]

4♠ as fast as I can get the card on the table. The K♥ is now worthless.

4♠, but in normal tempo.

[Codo]

I may disagree.

 

Partner splinter with at most KJxxx(??) in trump.

 

Something like KJTxxx,x,AKx,AKx is a minimum for his bid.

And this is a 50 % slam. Even if your expactations for the splinter are lesser, the 5. level is nearly always save.

 

You have around 3 tricks for partner, 2 im trump and a diamond ruff. No way this hand shall bid just 4 Spade.

 

I would invite with whatever bid I have avaiable.

[kfay]

I may disagree.

 

Partner splinter with at most KJxxx(??) in trump.

 

Something like KJTxxx,x,AKx,AKx is a minimum for his bid.

And this is a 50 % slam. Even if your expactations for the splinter are lesser, the 5. level is nearly always save.

 

You have around 3 tricks for partner, 2 im trump and a diamond ruff. No way this hand shall bid just 4 Spade.

 

I would invite with whatever bid I have avaiable.

Yeah when I originally saw this hand on vugraph I agreed with the first few comments, but then I considered some other things.

 

Partner made a slam try opposite a minimum raise missing AQ of trump.

 

The HK isn't as bad as it would be opposite a 1- splinter.

 

So if partner needs AQ K from me well the 5 level surly is relatively icy with 2/3 of those.

 

So going on makes more sense to me but at the table I'd bid 4S and watch agape as the hand unfolded.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=saq6hk873dj5c7432]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Uncontested

1♠            2♠

4♥(void)   ?

4♥ has devalued my hand (altho I would have made a LR) and 4♠ seems fairly obvious to me as I really find it hard to believe partner can avoid 2 minor suit losers.

[gwnn]

I'm quite undecided about this hand, the first thought was 'EZ 4sp' but really this was a hyper maximum for 2♠. Fred once said that a splinter over 1NT-stayman-response asks partner if he still has a 1NT opener without the short we're short in. Well, we still have a single raise. And we have trump honors. I'd like to bid on but not sure how. Ken? what's a trump cue here?

[dicklont]

When partner holds KJ10xxx - AKxx AKx he knows what his hand is and that the five level is save.

If I don't sign off now partner will play me for some value(s) in the minor suits.

[Cyberyeti]

When partner holds KJ10xxx - AKxx AKx he knows what his hand is and that the five level is save.

If I don't sign off now partner will play me for some value(s) in the minor suits.

Correct, partner is much more likely to have a lot of spades and be looking for the ace of spades and a minor suit king for slam to be good.

 

KJ10xxxx, void, Ax, AQxx would be much more typical and 5 may be too many.

[kenrexford]

A void splinter, or any splinter for that matter, that is immediately below game in the agreed trump suit is troubling.

 

As a contrast, a hand came up last night where partner made a splinter (turned out to be a void splinter, but not necessary) in diamonds with spades agreed. This allowed me on a fairly weak holding to cue back 4♥. Partner was then empowered to punt back, and we pushed each other cautiously into a making slam.

 

4♥, as the splinter, deprives the partnership of that one punt back below game and therefore is more difficult to handle. As a result, with other options available, 4♥ should be fairly limited, either to a weak punt or to a strong punt.

 

If you have agreed to play void splinters, then you should probably be competent to discuss what a one-under splinter asks/shows. The question of what to bid, then, is really a question better handled by asking the "earlier" question of what 4♥ shows or should show. "I have a void" as the only message sucks, especially with all that space available for other moves.

[jdonn]

Well since I would move with AQx xxxx Jx xxxx, I will move with this hand. IMO this is a case of people panicking over 1 wasted honor opposite a splinter and thus ignoring the good of the hand. Lots of hands are good slams, like Kxxxxx - AKQx AQx with the minors either way. How about KJxxxxx - AKxx Ax. Too many hands make slam to give up. And no, partner is not driving to 5 over a signoff on them.

 

As to what to do, I like 5♠ to show good trumps and nothing else to bid (that's the answer to your question gwnn). Maybe it should show 4 spades but it still seems like the closest action I have.

[jdonn]

KJ10xxxx, void, Ax, AQxx would be much more typical and 5 may be too many.

He is more likely to be long opposite your shortness and short opposite your length. So reverse the minors and you're (essentially) on a hook for slam. And of course that's not the most he could have either...

[Jlall]

Definitely don't sign off! I wouldn't drive it to slam so I'd just bid 5S. If I had to bid between 6S or 4S I would def choose 6S though but 5S seems just right showing good trumps and no minor suit control. FWIW if I had worse trumps and no minor suit control I would bid 5H ie Axx xxxx Qx Qxxx.

[bid_em_up]

Correct, partner is much more likely to have a lot of spades and be looking for the ace of spades and a minor suit king for slam to be good.

 

KJ10xxxx, void, Ax, AQxx would be much more typical and 5 may be too many.

I really don't think this hand qualifies for a splinter by opener. For all opener knows, partners hand is Qxx AQJx xxx xxx, in which case, 4 is probably too high.

 

Missing both the A and Q of spades, his hand should be at least a king better than your example hand.

 

jmoo.

[Cyberyeti]

Correct, partner is much more likely to have a lot of spades and be looking for the ace of spades and a minor suit king for slam to be good.

 

KJ10xxxx, void, Ax, AQxx would be much more typical and 5 may be too many.

I really don't think this hand qualifies for a splinter by opener. For all opener knows, partners hand is Qxx AQJx xxx xxx, in which case, 4 is probably too high.

 

Missing both the A and Q of spades, his hand should be at least a king better than your example hand.

 

jmoo.

Like you're going to stay out of game with that sort of hand, you're going to bid 4♠ if you don't bid 4♥.

 

Axx, xxxx, xxx, Kxx is plenty for a slam and minors reversed it's 50-50.

 

Partner would also sign off in 4♠ faster than a speeding bullet on the hand you give and I can guarantee you this board will be flat if 4♠ doesn't make.

[Trinidad]

Well since I would move with AQx xxxx Jx xxxx, I will move with this hand. IMO this is a case of people panicking over 1 wasted honor opposite a splinter and thus ignoring the good of the hand.

I fully agree with Josh. Splinters are not about how many wasted high card points you have. They are about how many working HCPs you have left over.

 

I have seen people drive to slam after 1M- splinter with a minimum opening with nothing wasted. (No wastage, partner!) And the same people sign off in game with 18 HCPs and KJxx in the splinter suit. (Four HCPs down the drain, partner!)

 

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

Well since I would move with AQx xxxx Jx xxxx, I will move with this hand. IMO this is a case of people panicking over 1 wasted honor opposite a splinter and thus ignoring the good of the hand.

I fully agree with Josh. Splinters are not about how many wasted high card points you have. They are about how many working HCPs you have left over.

 

I have seen people drive to slam after 1M- splinter with a minimum opening with nothing wasted. (No wastage, partner!) And the same people sign off in game with 18 HCPs and KJxx in the splinter suit. (Four HCPs down the drain, partner!)

 

Rik

Agree with the principle, but I wouldn't dream of moving on that hand with potentially only 4 working points if partner has 7 or 8 spades and only 6 if he has less. If that hand is enough, partner should have another go or should not have bid 4♥. If all he needs is the A♠, 5♥ exclusion would not have been stupid rather than 4♥.

 

I'm not moving pretty much whatever I've got with nothing in the minors.

[HeavyDluxe]

I fully agree with Josh. Splinters are not about how many wasted high card points you have. They are about how many working HCPs you have left over.

I get that, too.

 

My thinking was along the lines of cyberyeti's, I suppose. Pard's made a slam try opposite a possible dead-minimum. I wanted to tell partner than his splinter made that 'possibility' a reality and then I'd cooperate with any move he wanted to make past 4♠.

 

However, I'm not too proud to admit that I was wrong... and, seeing Jlall and Jdonn's posts convinces me that I am (again). I have two huge cards and should probably bid 5♠...

 

That's why I come here... So, someday, I'll have minimally diminished my level of suck. :)

 

In my defense, my p's never table a dummy like the ones the 5♠ bidders constructed!

[jdonn]

I disagree with thinking of this hand as 4 working points. I don't think the spade queen is wasted at all, even if partner does have KJTxxxx.

- It protects us against a bad spade break.

- It makes it very easy to ruff 2 diamonds in dummy if needed, which would be a lot trickier if our spades were Axx.

- It's a working value that we know partner doesn't have, therefore he is more likely to have important values in the minors than if we had Axx Kxxx Jx xxxx.

- Partner could easily just have six spades, now the queen is really useful.

 

Not to mention, the jack of diamonds could easily be useful too. KJxxxx - KQTx AKJ is a terrible slam without the diamond jack, about 70% with it since we are cold on 2-2 trumps or the club finesse. (And without the spade queen it's about 25%).

 

And can anyone really say with a straight face that if we sign off partner should move again on that hand? I'd be happy enough just to make 4♠ holding that hand once partner signed off. In fact I declare absolute shenanigans on the claim partner is going to just be pulling our signoff left and right on hands where we make slam.

[Cyberyeti]

If partner has a hand where the J♦ is useful, then yes he will not move again, I was talking more about the previously quoted rock crushers like:

 

KJxxxxx - AKxx Ax for example where I'd definitely move again.

 

Would be interesting if my partner made this invite as it would contain a very slightly different connotation to what it would mean to most of the people in this thread. Our agreement is that 4♥ not only shows a heart void, but wants exclusion responses with the exception that we bid 4♠ if rock bottom minimum, so I would give my exclusion response here as while fairly minimum in the context of a wasted K♥ I'm not rock bottom minimum.

[jdonn]

KJxxxxx - AKxx Ax for example where I'd definitely move again.

Totally clear error imo. Qxx KJxx xxxx Qx. And that is not some carefully picked example, it's perfectly normal for a rejection of the invitation. I even gave him an 8 count with the spade queen, next time I could be mean and give him xxx KJTxx Jxx Qx where nothing in his hand is working. It is very very very bad to go down at the 5 level on an auction with no interference.

[Jlall]

Some of these examples of 4H bids are terrible. For instance the 7-4 hands should often be bidding their second suit. KJxxxxx --- AKxx Ax is a good example of that, diamond queen/jack/length are good, club queen/jack/length are not really. Heck even a doubleton diamond is awesome and a doubleton club sucks. Void showing splinters, especially 1 under the trump suit will get partner to assume that his queens in the side suit are working.

 

Anyways I agree if you make the error of bidding 4H with that hand over 2S that bidding over 4S would be horrible.

[Cyberyeti]

KJxxxxx - AKxx Ax for example where I'd definitely move again.

Totally clear error imo. Qxx KJxx xxxx Qx. And that is not some carefully picked example, it's perfectly normal for a rejection of the invitation. I even gave him an 8 count with the spade queen, next time I could be mean and give him xxx KJTxx Jxx Qx where nothing in his hand is working. It is very very very bad to go down at the 5 level on an auction with no interference.

When I quoted something like that above, I was told I wasn't allowed to have partner 4-2 in the minors the same way as me and it was far more likely to be the other way round (in which case 5 is cold even on the hand given).

 

I'm also coming from a background where I wouldn't bid 2♠ on some of the example hands quoted here, there was no indication of system given or that the OP was even playing 5 card majors. I actually wouldn't bid 2♠ on the original hand given in the problem, so am somewhat shooting in the dark as to what I'm expecting to find opposite when trying to work out how the big hand bids.

[H_KARLUK]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skt9854hdakq2caj3&w=sj3hat942d8763ck6&e=s72hqj65dt94cqt98&s=saq6hk873dj5c7542]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]