Stop card?

[jdonn]

The idea that obeying a little regulation like this smacks of being treated as a little boy is very strange, and anyone who thinks this way probably dislikes being told which way round the table the bidding goes, and when he should alert.  But it is normal to have rules in sports and mindsports.

Lol do you ever stop creating false arguments for your opponents? It is not following a rule that is irritating, it's having a rule enforced by your opponents, I have been quite clear about that. Do the opponents hold up a sign for me that says "your turn to bid now" and I get penalized if I bid before they hold up the sign? Please show me a single sport where the opponents enforce a rule for the other side.

[Jlall]

Not everybody is an expert. Not everybody aspires to be one. Some people just like to play bridge as best they can. Telling Joe and Judy Dabbler to control their tempo like experts is not gonna go anywhere. They won't. They can't.

I have been very careful to continually say things like in an expert vs expert match I think that the players can self correct this rule. In fact, I think that is what happens regularly. You're right that not everyone is an expert. My point is that the optional or non use of the stop card allows people to self correct the problem that after many skips in bridge nobody is ever going to bid, so making them wait 10 seconds is silly. Thus I think forcing people to use the stop card and wait 10 seconds on every skip..well..sucks

 

 

Anyways as others have pointed out the truth is that many non experts will give away whether they're thinking or not anyways. Especially if it's your own partner, you know their mannerisms etc, and not everyone is a great actor, especially most non experts who don't understand why they should be or tempo issues in general etc. I doubt England is some magical promise land where all the bad players act exactly the same whether they're thinking or not if they're a non expert. Of course I'm sure there are a few non expert bridge players who are expert in understanding the rules, but they would definitely be the exception. Those players would not need a "reminder" to keep an even tempo anyways, so the stop card is not really helping in that situation either.

 

I think the references to looking at a watch were a joke, but I could be wrong. I do not even mind any of this, people play bridge to have fun and most players are not nefarious, they just don't understand tempo related issues. That's fine. I just don't understand how the stop card is helping anything. Either the players understand the rules enough to keep an even tempo, or they don't. If they are in the latter group they will not suddenly give no hint of if they have a problem or not when the stop card comes out.

 

It is a silly rule, and I still maintain that 10 seconds is a silly amount of time. If you're going to set an arbitrary amount of time that everyone must pause over every skip make it 5 seconds. 5 seconds is an eternity. But best of all is to be allowed to set your own tempo in certain situations. Yes this gives more room for cheating, but if that's what you want to do you will find other ways anyways. Yes it will lead to situations where someone says HE HESITATED, and the other guy is like NO THAT IS MY NORMAL TEMPO. Let the directors or committees figure it out based on the auction and what is a reasonable normal tempo in that auction, etc. If it's close give the guy the benefit of the doubt that it's his normal tempo.

[aguahombre]

I think Josh doesn't like the stop card.

[nige1]

It is neither harmless (annoyance is harmful) nor does it benefit me in any way, as I make the appropriate stop whether the card is used or not. But I am glad to add one to the list of forum posters who seem to prefer America-bashing as a sport more than they prefer bridge.

I am sorry. I intended no offence. I do enjoy Bridge but I'm not in a xenophobe. I hope to visit the USA some day. But I haven't done so yet. Hence what little I know of America is hearsay. I think the first time I read the sentence "We play hardball" was in Bob Hamman's autobiography At the Table. He wrote "In a major event like the Spingold, I don't ask for quarter and I don't give it" and he relates amusing examples.

[cherdanno]

That's incorrect as far as ACBL regulations are concerned. I don't think it changes anything anyway - those who would spend 10 seconds looking at their watch find other ways of making it obvious they aren't thinking if you change the rules. That's at least my experience from playing under such regulations.

My experience is that people are pretty good at hesitating without giving anything away. Making it obvious that you aren't actually thinking about your hand is, of course, cheating, and should be reported.

For me, "cheating" means "intentionally breaking the rules in order to get an unfair advantage". Hence your second sentence is just wrong, 99% of players who give away whether they are thinking are either

- not aware that they should make an effort not to give this away, or

- not aware that they are giving away whether they are thinking.

 

Since your second sentence is so wrong (IMO), I find it hard to believe your first sentence, no matter where you live.

[Trinidad]

That's incorrect as far as ACBL regulations are concerned. I don't think it changes anything anyway - those who would spend 10 seconds looking at their watch find other ways of making it obvious they aren't thinking if you change the rules. That's at least my experience from playing under such regulations.

My experience is that people are pretty good at hesitating without giving anything away. Making it obvious that you aren't actually thinking about your hand is, of course, cheating, and should be reported.

For me, "cheating" means "intentionally breaking the rules in order to get an unfair advantage". Hence your second sentence is just wrong, 99% of players who give away whether they are thinking are either

- not aware that they should make an effort not to give this away, or

- not aware that they are giving away whether they are thinking.

 

Since your second sentence is so wrong (IMO), I find it hard to believe your first sentence, no matter where you live.

I can think of a lot of words to describe the players that pull out a pass card and hold it above the table while counting to 10. But "cheater" isn't one of them. :)

 

Rik

[jeremy69]

Obviously I will get lots of disagreement since people here clearly like it, but it's the leaving the card on the table that I really hate.

 

You couldn't blame anyone for doing this in England because the relevant regulation is 7B5 form the Orange Book which says

 

"The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next player time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely."

 

I can think of a lot of words to describe the players that pull out a pass card and hold it above the table while counting to 10. But "cheater" isn't one of them

 

Why? The player is quite deliberately indicating to partner that he has nothing to think about and using a forbidden form of communication to do this. If he said to the table "I've got nothing to think about and will pass as soon as these stupid regulations allow me to" the wrath of heaven and the regulating authority might fall upon him but this is the same thing in my view. If it was done through inexperience, without intent or because of an ignorance of the regulation I would agree. There are undoubtedly worse forms of cheating than this but nonetheless it is an example.

[campboy]

True. Instead you can tell them to wait 10 seconds, and they will do so, looking at their watch for 9 seconds, grabbing the pass card, waiting another second, and putting it on the table.

But that is not what should happen with the current stop card regs. You make a skip bid; you use the stop card; you wait ten seconds (looking at your watch, if you like); you take the stop card away; they pass.

That's incorrect as far as ACBL regulations are concerned. I don't think it changes anything anyway - those who would spend 10 seconds looking at their watch find other ways of making it obvious they aren't thinking if you change the rules. That's at least my experience from playing under such regulations.

I'm sure he's kidding.

I didn't realise the regulations were different in the ACBL. But what I described is how it works in the EBU, and it works well. Here you very rarely see someone call before the stop card has been removed, or show obvious indifference while pausing.

[TMorris]

campboy

What you say is not the case in clubs. The stop card is regularly ignored there. The "better" educated might hold their hand over the pass card in the bidding box with a smile until the stop card is put away but then most people just take out the stop card, bid and put the stop card back with no delay - you tend to get quizzical looks if you then wait 10 seconds.

Tournements are of course rather better than this.

TMorris

[Trinidad]

I can think of a lot of words to describe the players that pull out a pass card and hold it above the table while counting to 10. But "cheater" isn't one of them

 

Why? The player is quite deliberately indicating to partner that he has nothing to think about and using a forbidden form of communication to do this. If he said to the table "I've got nothing to think about and will pass as soon as these stupid regulations allow me to" the wrath of heaven and the regulating authority might fall upon him but this is the same thing in my view. If it was done through inexperience, without intent or because of an ignorance of the regulation I would agree. There are undoubtedly worse forms of cheating than this but nonetheless it is an example.

Jeremy, seriously, have you ever seen an experienced player do this?

 

How many times have you seen palookas do this?

 

When an opponent holds a pass card above the table and counts to 10, you can expect to get a lot of MPs that round.

 

Rik

[jeremy69]

Jeremy, seriously, have you ever seen an experienced player do this?

 

How many times have you seen palookas do this?

 

1. Rarely, if ever

 

2. Not very often but those who are inexperienced or have no idea of the stop procedure just won't stop. It is those who do know what it is and are choosing to ignore it or demonstrate why they don't agree or (rarely) give partner deliberate UI.

[Trinidad]

Jeremy, seriously, have you ever seen an experienced player do this?

 

How many times have you seen palookas do this?

 

1. Rarely, if ever

 

2. Not very often but those who are inexperienced or have no idea of the stop procedure just won't stop. It is those who do know what it is and are choosing to ignore it or demonstrate why they don't agree or (rarely) give partner deliberate UI.

So you have never played against the group of people that are only slightly more experienced than your group 2? This is the group that knows the stop procedure, but doesn't understand what it is for.

 

These people that have been told by a TD, a friendly opponent or their bridge teacher that after a STOP they need to pause for 10 s. I think that Audrey Grant did a wonderful job writing the official bridge course books for the ACBL. The last book Introduction to Bridge. Spade series teaches how duplicate bridge is played at the club or in tournaments. From the 1st print, p131:

After you make your [skip] bid, the opponent on your left is expected to look at his hand intently for approximately 10 seconds before making his call.

After that she explains the purpose of the procedure, but I have seen many of her students who stopped reading right there.

 

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. :P )

 

Rik

[nige1]

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. :( )

I agree with everyone else that the US regulation is at fault; and it is also a matter of education. In the UK, if the LHO of a skip-bidder counted to ten out loud, the director would explain that he was transmitting unnecessary unauthorised information and why that is to be avoided. Here, it is the responsibility of the skip-bidder to face the stop card while the skip-bidder counts to ten -- but not out loud either.

[Jlall]

And I have seen these "card out of the bidding box, then count to 10." people in every country where I have played. They are not obnoxious protesters. They are inexperienced people. They are trying to do the right thing, but they can't because they have never been explained properly why they need to count to 10. (And why counting out loud is the exact thing that they are not supposed to do. :( )

I agree with everyone else that the US regulation is at fault; and it is also a matter of education. In the UK, if the LHO of a skip-bidder counted to ten out loud, the director would explain that he was transmitting unnecessary unauthorised information and why that is to be avoided. Here, it is the responsibility of the skip-bidder to face the stop card while the skip-bidder counts to ten -- but not out loud either.

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

 

If you use the stop card here you keep it there for 10 seconds and then you remove it. They cannot bid until you remove it. Obviously you are not allowed to count to 10 out loud here.

[suprgrover]

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

 

If you use the stop card here you keep it there for 10 seconds and then you remove it. They cannot bid until you remove it. Obviously you are not allowed to count to 10 out loud here.

This is what the ACBL bid box regulations say about the Stop card:

 

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding.

 

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

 

NOTE: If a player forgets to replace the stop card there is no penalty. It is each player's responsibility to maintain appropriate tempo including after a skip bid.

 

So, the ACBL wants one to put the stop card away after displaying it, but leaving it out is tolerated. That's a lot different from the proper practice in other jurisdictions.

[nige1]

How is this different than what happens in USA? Are you just saying because it's mandatory?

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding.

Place the stop card so that LHO sees it (the skip bidder is responsible for gaining LHO's attention). The skip bid is made. The stop card is replaced in the bidding box.

NOTE: If a player forgets to replace the stop card there is no penalty. It is each player's responsibility to maintain appropriate tempo including after a skip bid.

So, the ACBL wants one to put the stop card away after displaying it, but leaving it out is tolerated.  That's a lot different from the proper practice in other jurisdictions.

Also the US regulations don't appear to mandate that the stop-bidder waits (about) ten seconds before removing the stop card. It should be the responsibility of the stop-bidder not his LHO to estimate that duration. The stop-bidder's LHO should wait for the stop-bidder to remove the stop card, before making his call.

 

I now have more sympathy for JLall's and JDonn's attitude to stop cards :(

[Jlall]

Maybe it doesn't mandate it, but that is what "everyone" does here in practice. I don't ever use the stop card so I can't tell you what I do. Most people are not going to read the stop card and do what it says, they're going to do what other people, especially people they respect, seem to be doing. In tournament bridge that is the normal procedure (to put it down, make your bid, wait ten seconds, take it away).

 

My gripe has nothing to do with whether they keep it out our not, and I think jdonn if anything would prefer them not to keep it out.

 

I am sympathetic to the view that the stop card should either be made mandatory or done away with, kind of, I'm really only sympathetic to the latter view. I think it is so horrible that I prefer it be optional to mandatory.

[suprgrover]

Maybe it doesn't mandate it, but that is what "everyone" does here in practice. I don't ever use the stop card so I can't tell you what I do. Most people are not going to read the stop card and do what it says, they're going to do what other people, especially people they respect, seem to be doing. In tournament bridge that is the normal procedure (to put it down, make your bid, wait ten seconds, take it away).

 

My gripe has nothing to do with whether they keep it out our not, and I think jdonn if anything would prefer them not to keep it out.

 

I am sympathetic to the view that the stop card should either be made mandatory or done away with, kind of, I'm really only sympathetic to the latter view. I think it is so horrible that I prefer it be optional to mandatory.

One problem here is that the backs of most stop cards in ACBL bidding boxes properly reference the Swedish regulation that mandates they be kept out for 10 seconds. That has never been the ACBL regulation. Jlall plays a lot more bridge in tournaments than I do, and in more rarefied circles, but from what I see, practice in this neck of the ACBL woods is that there are multiple approaches to the stop card, with the plurality never using it.

 

(Another problem is that ACBL regulations are generally not publicized all that well at all.)

[blackshoe]

Some people put the stop card down, make a call, leave the stop card for a bit, and then pick it up. Some put the card down, call, and immediately pick it up (as the regulation suggests they should do). Some take the option not to give a stop card warning. In club games around here, and in sectionals, I have rarely seen any LHO of a skip bidder actually pause the required ten seconds. I haven't been to a regional or a national lately, so I can't speak to those.