4th suit

[1eyedjack]

Kibbing a hand the other day reminded me of a problem that seems to crop up sufficiently regularly in my experience as to justify attention.

 

In an uncontested auction the declaring side held Axx opposite Qx in Clubs. 3NT (the most likely game) makes by the hand with Qx, but fails on a Club lead played the other way up. Commonly the hand with Axx would bid 4th suit to steer the declaration into partner's hand. Unfortunately, on this occasion, the auction is already at the 3 level in a denomination higher than the 4th suit, so the hand with Axx takes a punt at 3NT and wrong-sides the contract. I can't remember the auction on this occasion but the frequency of the situation rises as the denomination of the 4th suit decreases. It is rarely a problem when spades is the 4th suit, more so with Clubs.

 

I was wondering about the merits of using the next step up as 2-way, either its original natural context or 4th suit. The conditions when this applies being:

 

1) The 4th suit cannot be bid below 3N.

2) Any other conditions for use of 4th suit forcing are satisfied.

 

By way of example

1S-2H-3D-3H would mean either extra Hearts or a hand suitable for 4th suit forcing. There appears to be room to clarify.

 

Clearly this adds some ambiguity to the 3H bid. I do not suggest that it is a panacea. But is it an improvement?

 

If it is an improvement then I expect that it is a wheel already invented, but I can recall encountering it in the wild, so perhaps it is flawed.

[jdonn]

Better to add the ambiguity to opener's 2♠ rebid so that the 3♦ bid is both less common and more descriptive. It doesn't cure the problem you describe completely, but it's a logical principle that if the higher bid is more descriptive you have less of a problem over it. If the lower bid is more ambiguous you have more of a problem over it, but conversely have more room to solve that problem as well.

 

1♠ 2♥ 3♦ is always difficult though, kind of like 1♥ 1♠ 2♦ 3♣. No way around it completely without adding serious artificiality. If 3♥ on the auction you suggest is ambiguous, then 3♠ by opener must be ambiguous, and then who knows what responder's bids mean over that. You just lose all sorts of chances to make accurate natural descriptive bids to solve one particular problem. No thanks.

[NickRW]

It strikes me that any system which is highly tuned to finding/staying out of 3N plus right siding it when it should be bid is a highly MP oriented system.

[straube]

As far as the specific auction 1S-2H, 3D it seems like you would want to leave room for rebidding hearts and a stuck bid. So perhaps 1S-2H, 3D-3H would rebid hearts and 3S would be stuck. 4C could show a spade fit.

[jdonn]

As far as the specific auction 1S-2H, 3D  it seems like you would want to leave room for rebidding hearts and a stuck bid.  So perhaps 1S-2H, 3D-3H would rebid hearts and 3S would be stuck.  4C could show a spade fit.

It sounds logical, but what are opener's options over 3♠ if he can't bid 3NT? How does he show if he was really 6-4? How does he knows which major to choose? Does 4♦ show 5-5 or is it an option if he is also stuck? Does 4♣ say he is also stuck and if so what does responder do? I think this opens up a can of worms, although it may be no worse than the problem that exists if all bids are natural.

[straube]

I don't think opener should be 6-4; using 3D ought to promise 5. I think that's standard, but if not I remember that Meckwell at least requires a 5-card suit for it to be introduced at the 3-level; they would simply rebid 2S. In standard, 1S-2H, 2S is often rebid with a variety of hand patterns.

 

Using a stuck bid should probably mean either that one is undecided between two or three strains or that one wants to be in 3N (misfitting) but lacks a stopper. It shouldn't mean that one has a stopper but wants the hand played from the other side.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to form an agreement for the specific sequence 1S-2H, 3D, however one could form agreements about switching the meanings of various bids in various sequences and one could similarly define 3S as a stuck bid in certain situations.