What level ?

[dellache]

You have as East, [hv=d=s&v=n&s=sak8765h763dk2c84]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] and the sequence starts with : 1♣ PASS 1♦

[gwnn]

1 level, i don't like preempting on ak 6th

[andy_h]

1♠, non problem.

[aguahombre]

You started with a 10 count and a six card suit...your king of diamonds became an ace. Why would you do anything else but bid 1S? Make the AK of Spades into two small ones, and then you have a 2S bid.

[jdonn]

xxxxxx xxx Kx xx is a 2♠ bid?!? But yeah this is a 1♠ bid, 2♠ is masterminding.

[pooltuna]

xxxxxx xxx Kx xx is a 2♠ bid?!? But yeah this is a 1♠ bid, 2♠ is masterminding.

It is? I thought it was just a blocking bid for opponents having a constructive auction.

[aguahombre]

xxxxxx xxx Kx xx is a 2♠ bid?!? But yeah this is a 1♠ bid, 2♠ is masterminding.

It is? I thought it was just a blocking bid for opponents having a constructive auction.

I think josh is saying that the given hand with ak sixth of spades and a working king of diamonds would be masterminding if he bid 2S. The silly example I gave with six small and the king of diamonds was hyperbole, but a lot closer to a 2S call than the real holding.

[ArtK78]

I suppose one could make an argument for something other than 1♠, but the crux of that argument would be one of the following:

 

1) "Look what I did to my opps on this hand! They never recovered!"

 

or

 

2) "Look what my idiot opponent did, and it killed us!"

 

I bid 1♠.

[Jlall]

I'm happy to bid 2S when the auction starts this way, we're so unlikely to go for a number when neither of them has 5 spades. Still possible I guess, but our hand is decent enough to offset 6322.

[mike777]

1s

 

If pard prefers 2s, npp.

[Phil]

2S. Don't see the fuss here, sorry.

[quiddity]

I'm happy to bid 2S when the auction starts this way, we're so unlikely to go for a number when neither of them has 5 spades. Still possible I guess, but our hand is decent enough to offset 6322.

Isn't it also decent enough to worry about missing game? Or missing a nice 3-level penalty if they step out of line and partner has the right hand? I guess a sandwich preempt should promise some values, but this still seems heavy.

[aguahombre]

i can only conclude that those who advocate 2S are referring to the dumb-azz example I threw in (tXXXXX XXX KX XX), and those who advocate 1S are responding to the real OP hand (AKXXXX XXX KX XX).

 

I am sorry for creating the confusion, because ordinarily solid forum contributors are making no sense unless that is the case.

[neilkaz]

2S. Don't see the fuss here, sorry.

1 or 2 depending upon whom I am playing with, but most pards won't think the hand too strong for 2♠

[gnasher]

Isn't it also decent enough to worry about missing game?

That's one of the reasons that I'd overcall only 1♠. My partner could have a balanced 13-count, so game could well be on. Some other reasons: I wouldn't want him sacrificing, since I seem to have 2-3 defensive tricks; I'm 6322 with three small hearts; I know that their heart fit is eight cards at best.

 

I guess a sandwich preempt should promise some values

Now that I don't agree with. With QJ10xxxx x xx xxx it's obvious to preempt in the sandwich position.

Edited October 9, 2009 by gnasher

[jdonn]

The logic of 2♠ is still absolutely escaping me. What about AK K and no shortness is preemptive? Why can't we still have game?

 

Btw what is with the influx of uppercase PASSes that seem to have started while I was gone? I feel like I am being randomly shouted at.

[gnasher]

Why can't we still have game?

Maybe because the takeout double has been so debased that partner, who passed over 1♣, can't provide enough for game? If almost all opening hands with 3-3 or longer in the majors would have bid over 1♣, that does greatly reduce the chance that 4♠ is on.

[jdonn]

Why can't we still have game?

Maybe because the takeout double has been so debased that partner, who passed over 1♣, can't provide enough for game? If almost all opening hands with 3-3 or longer in the majors would have bid over 1♣, that does greatly reduce the chance that 4♠ is on.

I am more guilty than most of 'debasing' the takeout double in this way, and yet it didn't cross my mind at all that game was unlikely.

[MFA]

I think 2♠ is a fine pressure bid.

[Jlall]

The logic of 2♠ is still absolutely escaping me.

That's because you're a [deleted] who thinks he knows all about bridge, and likes to make exaggerated posts where your head is in the sand because you think it is cool and makes you look better than you are.

 

I can't decide if you really don't understand the logic of making a preemptive bid or not. Either way you seem quite dense.

 

What about AK K and no shortness is preemptive?

 

Jumping the bidding a level is preemptive. I guess the question is what makes you want to preempt with such a hand? Because it will be harder for the opponents to bid accurately!

 

Why can't we still have game?

 

Why are people assuming we cannot bid game after we make a preemptive jump overcall? If partner has some spades and some shape he can try for game, or simply jump to game (which is a standard thing to do with 4 spades and a stiff). Of course whenever we are maximum for our bid we might miss game, obviously people who bid 2S think that the added preemption will cause them enough problems to compensate for the relatively rare times that we have a game and partner's hand is not worth trying for it.

 

Partner has passed over 1C. If he has length in both majors and an opening hand he likely would have found some bid. Sure he can be 3325 with 13 not prime. Sure if the hands fit well we will have a game, and he will pass. Is it even clear we get to game after overcalling 1S? I am not cooperating with a cuebid anyways. Anyways, assuming we always bid game correctly after bidding 1S we will lose a huge SIX imps when this happens. If we cause any problems with their auction so that they get too high or too low, we will regain those 6 imps (ok maybe just 5).

 

If partner had most shapes that did not include a doubleton diamond, he would have doubled 1C (unless it has a doubleton spade, then I'm not that worried about missing game). We still have no shortness opposite no shortness and 23 HCP, it's not like game has to be cold. Meckstroth Xed 1C in the bermuda bowl with 3334, no aces, and KTxx of clubs. I think gnashers point about the debasing of the takeout double is a good one because it eliminates most opening bids from partner given we know that he has some heart length.

 

It is a similar situation to partner being a passed hand, and RHO opening 1x, except we know LHO won't have 5 spades behind us so it is safer to bid 2S this time.

 

The question is not "why can't we have game?" it's

 

A) How likely are we to have game after the auction starts this way

B ) What subset of these hands do we get to game with after overcalling 1S and miss game after overcalling 2S?

C) What do we lose on those occasions?

D) Do we gain enough from giving them headaches to compensate for this?

 

Given that we lose relatively little, and lose it on a very infrequent basis, I would say that D is definitely "yes."

 

A not so unlikely scenario is that if we had bid 1S LHO could make a support double, and RHO could compete to 3D. However if we bid 2S everyone passes with both making. That alone almost makes up for 1 instance of missing a NV game.

 

Or RHO balances with a X, and LHO bids something. RHO has an 11 count, does he move for game or not? Either way he may get to game going down or miss game when he would have gotten to show his values easily if I had just bid 1S. One instance of this could make up for us missing a NV game.

 

In similar vein, what if RHO had a hand that would normally invite in clubs or diamonds? Now he has to bid 3m which is just competitive and not invitational at all, or he has to do something like X and figure it out, never really getting to show his hand. That is a victory when they go wrong which will happen sometimes, rather than having the ability to jump etc.

 

Or we bid 1S and LHO bids 1N and it's passed back to us. Do we bid or pass? If we pass maybe they make when 2S would have made. If we bid maybe we get doubled when it would have gone all pass if we had bid 2S to begin with it would go all pass. Down 2 and a small swing against.

 

In similar vein what if LHO and partner pass, and RHO bids 2 of a minor. Are you bidding 2S or not? If you do LHO might be happy to double you. If not you might defend 2m making when you make 2S, or when you would have pushed them to 3m by starting with 2S (RHO having a 3m balance). Or, once again 2S might buy it when RHO has a pass, but since you let him balance with 2m LHO can compete to 3m.

 

Or if we bid 1S LHO bids 2C, and RHO can compete to 3C. If we bid 2S LHO has to pass and we buy it.

 

Or if we bid 2S LHO stretches to bid 3C. RHO bids game and goes down. Or LHO bids 3C with full values, RHO has a marginal hand that would bid game after a JUMP to 3C, but since it's a little murkier in competition he goes low and they miss game.

 

How about if LHO is raising diamonds? If we bid 1S we allow him to bid 2D or 3D. If we bid 2S he can only bid 3D, and will always raise with 4 diamonds meaning if he has a hand worth a 3D jump he will often stretch and bid 3S or something. This is a gain, they might well get too high now.

 

 

It's awesome to have you back Jdonn, please don't turn into the new somebody-we-know-who-knows-it-all-and-hasnt-gotten-any-better-in-the-last-5-years-despite-being-way-more-talented-than-you.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Jlall

[Phil]

The logic of 2♠ is still absolutely escaping me. What about AK K and no shortness is preemptive? Why can't we still have game?

 

Btw what is with the influx of uppercase PASSes that seem to have started while I was gone? I feel like I am being randomly shouted at.

I hope you noticed we are opposite a passed partner. With two bidding opponents. I highly doubt we have game.

[Jlall]

Isn't it also decent enough to worry about missing game?

That's one of the reasons that I'd overcall only 1♠. My partner could have a balanced 13-count, so game could well be on. Some other reasons: I wouldn't want him sacrificing, since I seem to have 2-3 defensive tricks; I'm 6322 with three small hearts; I know that their heart fit is eight cards at best.

 

I guess a sandwich preempt should promise some values

Now that I don't agree with. With QJ10xxxx x xx xxx it's obvious to preempt in the sandwich position.

You really wouldn't want partner to save if he thought it was right over 4H? What hands do you think would save white/white over 4H with a doubleton heart given that they are probably yarbs (they responded 1D not 1H so they probably have opening values?). I know if I was playing with you and I had QJxx xx xxx Qxxx it would not occur to me to save white/white opp a gnasher 2S overcall, but even if partner did save with that it would be right! Partner just isn't gonna save without a stiff if he has 2 defensive tricks and not many values at w/w, there is too much risk we are going down too many combined with some chance we are beating them. I would honestly like to see some 4 hand construction you could come up with where they are bidding 4H, partner is saving, and it is wrong. Admittedly you could criticize me for assuming walsh but that is very standard at least where I'm from.

 

Indeed I imagine if I overcalled 1S and partner bid a preemptive 3S I would instantly save over 4H if they got there.

 

Likewise I'm not worried about a save vs 3N since they probably won't be bidding 3N if we have 10 spades and the AK.

 

I would be most worried about a phantom save vs 5m, but that must be rare at these colors and partner might have overcalled 1S with some of those hands. And if he does save vs 5m it might be right, we have a lot of playing strength for our 2S bid relative to what we might have, and his #1 concern when saving is going to be that we have a good chance of going for only 300.

[Jlall]

Also possibly another way for us to win big by bidding 2S: If the opps have Qx opp Jxx of spades, it is very easy to sort out after a 1S overcall, and often difficult to sort out after a 2S overcall (though sometimes will time out so that it's easy).

[jdonn]

Wow Justin that was so unnecessary. How many of your former rants that it's ok to attack the idea but not the person do you want me to link to? Was that all because I used the word "absolutely"?!? I'M SORRY I DIDN'T MEAN TO EXAGERATE, I DIDN'T REALIZE THE EFFECT IT WOULD HAVE ON YOU! Tell me 1♠ is a stupid bid if you want (although it's not like I'm the only one bidding it!), I won't be offended, you essentially posted I made the worst bid ever the other day and I didn't mind at all. But oh my god, I don't see any logic behind a bid JUSTIN LALL chose, you can't stand for that! So then you have to make up totally hilarious claims like I love having my head in the sand, that's great coming from you! Let's do a count of who has let their mind be changed by the posts of others more over the years, I have a feeling I know who that is! But you don't have to change your mind ever, you are JUSTIN LALL, you have known everything since you were 6! And who can argue, none of us have had the honor of coming in last in the Cavendish with Zia, or having Fred tell us we would be the best player ever one day. Ok I'm speaking to the great JUSTIN LALL, I will take advantage of this rare opportunity and attempt to discuss bridge, maybe that will help me improve more over the next 5 years.

 

I implied this hand is not preemptive (you know, preemptive can refer to the nature of a hand, not just to the preemptive bid itself! I thought you knew that!) and you came back with a list of problems it can give the opponents. Great, I can bid 2♠ on any hand and they can have those problems. That doesn't change the fact this hand has lots of defense, it has an AK and the K of a suit bid on its right. You have totally ignorred your partner's decisions over 2♠. Maybe you think he won't make wrong decisions over your preempt with more defense than he expects, and maybe you would be right, but you will have to excuse me for thinking when you have AK and a K over the suit bid on your right you do not have the hand partner expects.

 

I also implied game is still likely. You make it sound like we need an opening hand with three spades for there to be game. Look, Qx AQJx Qxx xxxx, a nice fitting 11 count with a doubleton spade, game! But you would of course come back with what you just said, just because I bid 1♠ doesn't mean I will reach all or even most of my games. That is actually a very good point that I failed to consider! Look, I allowed myself to learn something!

 

But 1♠ has a lot more going for it too.

 

You might buy the hand in 1♠! And make 7 (or fewer) tricks!

You might be getting doubled in 2♠ but not in 1♠!

You might be getting doubled in both contracts and go down less!

 

I want to come up with some brilliant hilarious conclusion but I can't think of one, so I will just end by saying I have no idea who you are referring to in your brilliant hilarious conclusion. And thank you, it's awesome to be back as well!

[Jlall]

Stuff

♥ Well I'm pleasantly surprised there was no go jump off a bridge joke :)