steps after 2 c

[barryallen]

The problem may not be so much the response methods used but rather the stregth of your 2♣ opening bids.

 

I limit 2♣ openings to unbalanced hands with 3 or less losers and balanced hands with 22+ HCP. So, if partner's control response shows and ace and a king, then it is likely (not guaranteed) that we do have a slam. So I am not so worried about the level that we start exploring for a suit fit (I may already have a fit in hand anyway). As for balanced hands, if I bid 3NT over 3♣ partner knows that I am minimum - 22-24 HCP - and he can invite if he has more than just an ace and a king, or explore for a 4-4 fit using Stayman or Baron, whichever method the partnership favors.

 

If one does not open 2♣ on marginal hands - say, 4 and 5 loser 21 HCP hands - many of the problems complained about relating to control showing responses disappear.

That was what I was trying to refer to with If having any A+K means slam is more or less guaranteed, then I suppose yes. But do you really want to restrict yourself to hands where any A+K combination guarantees slam?

[fred]

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

 

  2D = 4-7

  2H = 0-3

  2S+ = 8+, natural

 

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

 

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit

  2H = 0-3

  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

 

Does that look familiar?

I do something like this, but instead of 2S being 8+ with a good suit, it is 8+ with a balanced hand.

 

This works well when opener has an unbalanced hand because he knows immediately that, not only does responder have substantial values, he also knows that responder has some support for opener's long suit.

 

When opener has a balanced hand the 2S bid has no real impact (versus, say, playing 2S as a natural positive).

 

My (extensive, subjective, and possibly biased) experience playing these methods suggests that 2H negative and 2S as a balanced positive are both good things.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[barryallen]

If I reduce your ranges by a point, swap 2D and 2H, and bid naturally with the strongest range, I get:

 

  2D = 4-7

  2H = 0-3

  2S+ = 8+, natural

 

If I then decide that I only bid 2S+ on good suits, I get:

 

  2D = 4-7, or 8+ without a good suit

  2H = 0-3

  2S+ = 8+, natural, good suit

 

Does that look familiar?

I do something like this, but instead of 2S being 8+ with a good suit, it is 8+ with a balanced hand.

 

This works well when opener has an unbalanced hand because he knows immediately that, not only does responder have substantial values, he also knows that responder has some support for opener's long suit.

 

When opener has a balanced hand the 2S bid has no real impact (versus, say, playing 2S as a natural positive).

 

My (extensive, subjective, and possibly biased) experience playing these methods suggests that 2H negative and 2S as a balanced positive are both good things.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

thank you,

Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?

And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

[fred]

thank you,

Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?

And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

 

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

 

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[mikeh]

thank you,

Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?

And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

 

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

 

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean :D

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Does 3♣ over 2N then ask responder to transfer to his major? Obviously, this structure, if used (and it seems logical to me to use this), would strain the methods when opener has a 2♣ opener based on clubs. If you do, in fact, use this approach, how do you deal with opener having a club one-suiter?

 

If you don't use this method, how does opener ascertain responder's suit?

[fred]

thank you,

Why select 8+ for your positive balanced 2♠ response?

And what are your direct 3 of a suit responses over 2♣?

The basic idea is that, when responder's hand falls within a certain range, he is under some pressure to make a slam try opposite an unbalanced 2C opener but does not have enough values to force to slam. When responder has this sort of hand it is often the case that the auction doesn't time well for him and he eventually has to guess whether or sign off in game or to drive to slam (perhaps after bidding Blackwood first). Bidding 2S right away with these hands lets responder get the message off his chest immediately.

 

The exact range I am referring to is a function of partnership style (specifically style pertaining to when you open 2C with unbalanced hands). In my regular partnerships this starts at around a good 8 points. Putting a cap on the 2S bid may or may not be a good idea. FWIW I normally play that 2S has an upper limit of a bad 11 HCP - with more than that we would tend to drive to slam.

 

We also play that 2NT is a positive response in either major, 3C is a positive response in diamonds, and 3D is a positive response in clubs. You don't want to know what higher bids mean :D

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Does 3♣ over 2N then ask responder to transfer to his major? Obviously, this structure, if used (and it seems logical to me to use this), would strain the methods when opener has a 2♣ opener based on clubs. If you do, in fact, use this approach, how do you deal with opener having a club one-suiter?

 

If you don't use this method, how does opener ascertain responder's suit?

You have the right idea.

 

3C is either clubs or balanced and asks opener to transfer to his major.

 

3NT over 2NT is natural and non-forcing with long clubs.

 

I suppose it could get be a little awkward when opener has clubs, but since we don't make suited positive responses very often, it hasn't been a bid deal for us (in fact, it hasn't even been a small deal - during the 4 or so years we have been playing this, I don't recall responder ever bidding 2NT when opener had long clubs).

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[gwnn]

Hi MikeH, nice to see you again.

 

hanp and cherdanno taught me these 2NT positive responses and the idea was that 3C was either asking or clubs then:

 

2C 2NT

3C 3D/H hearts/spades

 

If opener completes he is relatively balanced and trumps is set if he doesn't he has clubs.

[nige1]

Mike Ash makes me play something like ....

• 2♦ = 9+ HCP.
  
• 2♥ = 0-4 HCP or Flat 5-8 HCP .
  
• 2♠ = 5-8 HCP. 2-suiter. Now 2N = relay...
  • 3♣ = 2 suiter without ♣. Now 3♦ = relay ...
    • 3♥ = ♦ & ♠.
      
    • 3♠ = ♦ & ♥.
      
    • 3N = ♥ & ♠.
      

    [*] 3♦ = ♣ & ♥.

    [*] 3♥ = ♣ & ♠.

    [*] 3♠ = ♣ & ♦.

  [*] 2N = 5-8 HCP. 3-suiter. Now 3♣ = relay ...

  • 3♦/♥/♠ = shortage.
    
  • 3N = short ♣.
    

  [*] 3♣/♦/♥/♠ = 5-8 HCP. Transfer with single suiter.

His sensible idea is for responder to show shape with the most frequent point-count, while trying to avoid becoming declarer.

[pirate22]

Greetings Two hands under fire conditions :ph34r

 

Hand 1

 

AQ97543--AK8--3--AQ Resp Kx--QJ9--AQxx--KJxx

2cl 3h* (2 points) what a response

must be 1A& 2 K whick K's?

so 3sp 4cl(K cl)

4h 4sp (K sp)

7 sp pass but later prd told me considered 7 n/t

because of Q holdings

so contibutors what result would the get to 7 n/t x1 7sx1 lots in 6n/t/6sp

 

Hand 2

 

AK--AKQ86532--A8--x RESP Q10xx--Void--109xx--KJ109x

again a game going hand not proud but it got us there.

2cl 2h(1K)

4ht 4n/t* (A and K enquiry) unusual but legit

5cl(3- 1/2)points 6hts

lucky but top result

 

I happened to be dealer on both hands not consecutive.

but both hands i considered as game going and bidding proceeded with 2cl,using steped Norman responses

 

Have read Fred's input,and it needs my digestion,some good points especially if openers opener is based on long club suit,will add later regards

[precpj]

if Jimmy Cayne ( JEC) and his many many world class stars are in sync with this treatment, this calls for your attention:

 

2D is at most 1 control

2H is 2 controls

2S is 3 controls and ALL in same suit

2NT = any 3 controls NOT in same suit

 

When a 2nt response to 2C is meant to play natural and weaker than 3 controls = NOT good bridge =beginner crutch ( :) quoting comment on other reply) etc etc

 

With a pick up partner this is a decent treatment suggested by Marty Bergen in his Better Bidding with Bergen about page 120? good for "average player" as said in the book

 

2D waiting

new suit bid is a "decent suit and decent hand" 8+ HCP and suit quality example KTXXX diplayed in the book. My style is 2 of top3 7+ HCP i bid the suit

 

If going with controls

 

Marty suggest

 

2D 0-1control 0-4 HCP

2H 0-1 control 5+

2S 2 controls etc etc

 

the most important thing is: agreement ie many versions are all playable

 

PJ

[ArtK78]

Greetings Two hands under fire conditions :ph34r

 

Hand 1

 

AQ97543--AK8--3--AQ    Resp Kx--QJ9--AQxx--KJxx

            2cl                                  3h* (2 points) what a response

must be 1A& 2 K whick K's?

so        3sp                                  4cl(K cl)

            4h                                    4sp (K sp)

            7 sp                                  pass but later prd told me considered 7 n/t

                                                            because of Q holdings

so contibutors what result would the get to 7 n/t x1 7sx1 lots in 6n/t/6sp

I would NEVER think about opening 2♣ on that hand.

 

If you open 2♣ on such weak hands, control responses are going to get you into trouble.

 

Having said that, what was responder thinking when his partner opened 2♣? Did he check to see that they were using cards from the same deck?

[pirate22]

artk i stress control responses to 2cl openers are for experienced players .

you do not state which hand u would never open 2cl,but you fail to say what final contract your method employs with what result.

agree 2nd hand exotic partner knows the 2cl has a big single suited hand,hence responders 4n/t,according to openers stepped response can sign off in 5 any

give answers ,your comment accepted but contribute ty regards

[jjbrr]

Uh? I'm not sure control responses are for experienced players. I would think just the opposite. I certainly would never play any sort of control responses, because I'm much, much more keen on opener describing his hand while saving as much space as possible, finding the right strain, landing in the right game when it's right, and using judgment and good cuebidding when slam is possible.

 

Experienced players who understand how to evaluate their honors and can cuebid effectively, I would argue, do not need control responses.

 

Assuming partner opens 2♣ with a real 2♣ opener (and not the hand 1 you provided), I've never really had too much of a problem judging approximately how useful my hand is to partner.

 

With that said, I generally play precision, so I save even more space. And I definitely do not play control responses over that, either.

[ArtK78]

Pirate:

 

I showed the hand that I would not open 2♣ on - the first hand in your post.

 

jjbrr:

 

I disagree that control responses are not for experienced players. In fact, in the hands of experienced players, they work quite well.

 

As for using control responses with the Precision 1♣ opening, perhaps you should rethink your priorities. Control responses work very nicely with strong 1♣ openings. But perhaps I am biased from years playing Blue Club and Romex.

[jjbrr]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I'm certain I won't rethink my priorities regarding strong ♣. I can't think of anything better than finding myself in a GF at the one level and having all the room in the world to bid naturally. Not only do I get to judge the relative value of my controls, I get to judge how good my shortnesses and Qs and Js are too. Don't worry, I'll get to cuebid my controls along the way!

 

Surely you don't believe that being in a GF after a 2♣-some control response at the 3-level, with neither hand describing anything whatsoever about their distribution, is even remotely comparable.

 

Edit: And I would say anytime 2♣ opener has a void, the space taken up by control responses becomes an enormous obstacle.

[Echognome]

I hardly think it proves any point to give examples of hands that care only about controls showing how well they work using control responses. What about the hands where we cannot make slam and want to find the right strain for game? Kinda suck with control responses don't they?

 

I know a few authors that taut their methods by providing example hands where they work ideally. Big whoop!

[blackshoe]

One thing that affects how your build your response structure to 2♣ is what kinds of hands can open 2♣, and whether opener's rebid in a new suit over a minimum response is forcing to game. Modern style seems to be to open a lot of hands with 2♣ that Goren would have considered too weak for that call, and sometimes allow the bidding to subside below game. If that's the case, maybe control showing responses (which are slam oriented opposite hands that need controls and cover cards) is a bad approach. But if you have some other way to show the "not quite game forcing" hands, so that your 2♣ opening (if not balanced) is truly game forcing, perhaps showing controls is useful.

[jjbrr]

Another point is that presumably in relay precision systems, you can choose whether or not to initiate the control ask depending on whether or not you think that information will be valuable to you. Ideally, either player would be able to ask, depending on which player is the captain of the hand. For example, you wouldn't ask for controls until you know you have a fit and you have the features in your hand (perhaps a second suit) in which knowledge about controls will be especially helpful.

 

Using controls over 2♣, you have no choice but to answer your controls, regardless of whether the information is helpful or harmful to the auction, regardless of who the captain of the hand is, regardless of whether or not you were going to ask for aces anyway (after finding a fit or even not finding a fit), and regardless of whether or not you have your own suit or suits to bid.

 

It's much like asking keycard before finding a fit, and I think any experienced player would agree that that is not the correct order.

[pirate22]

I am trying to generate hands to further the argument/discussion,lets have some hands from precision/romex players succesfull and unsuccesfull, contracts.

from sayc/2/1-acol players mosquito players,polish club players,whether cue bidding Rkc bidders need an input of hands regards

[manudude03]

It really doesn't help when out of the 2 hands posted, the 1st is a very easy 7S to bid in 2/1 and the second has no legitimate way of making (funny you didn't check if responder's king was in diamonds which would make slam decent).

 

To hopefully let you see the light, here's the last 2 slam(ish) hands i remember starting with 2C:

 

[hv=d=s&n=sqhaxxxdxxxxckjxx&s=sakxxxxhxdakcaqtx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Playing ACOL.

This ended in 7C=:

 

2C-2D

2S-3C

4H-4NT

5C-5D

5S-7C

 

Note that 7S has play but it's poor.

 

[hv=d=s&n=sqhaxxxdxxxxckjxx&s=sakxxxxhxdakcaqtx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

2/1 this time.

 

2C-2S

3H-4H

4NT-5D

6H

 

Going one off when I find ♥ AJx offside.

[PrecisionL]

If I'm not mistaken, it was Garrozzo who originated control showing responses - or he was an early advocate of them. I haven't seen anything directly from him on it recently, but my understanding is that he's now decided that a more natural initial response system — so hopefully finding strain early — is better than showing controls.

 

That said, Romex still uses control showing responses (to both 2♣ and 1NT) , and my understanding is that they work well in that context.

Quoting from WORLD CLASS by Marc Smith (1999), page 66: Benito Garozzo & Systems:

 

"The Blue Club system that we played years ago just is not good enough for top-level today. ... The old system was based on controls, and it has taken me many years to realize that was wrong. The distribution is the most important thing and you should gear your bidding to concentrate on that first. ... First it should be distribution, and only when you know enough about partner's shape should you worry about controls."

 

Enough said?

[pirate22]

I agree opening 2c having a void in a suit is dangerous,and can lead to problems,so one would not open the hands with 2cl,employing Norman responses,but having said that ,the 4/nt opener is a specific response factor,there are hands that warrent this example

 

V--AKQJxxxx-K-AKQ10 one would not use 2cl

use 4n/t asking for specific aces 5cl=0 5d=Ace d 5sp=Ace sp 5n/t=2 aces

 

also opening 2cl one can get barrage bidding taking place with2cl opener to muddy waters--not so with 4n/t openers pard can use dopi and ropi,also still using above responses

[blackshoe]

If that's what 4NT means in your system. :ph34r:

[pirate22]

Blackshoe i do not know if 4n/t has a system name,but it was xplained to me long time ago,and has come into operation lots of times,depends how much bridge one plays-but one has to be ready at all times,once explained to partners the bid stands out a mile

[blackshoe]

If a partnership wants to make this agreement, that's fine with me - all I"m saying is that absent discussion and agreement, I wouldn't assume partner has any idea what he's supposed to do when I open 4NT - so I don't.