1D-1S, 1N

[straube]

This site...

http://www.jimloy.com/bridge/symmetrc.htm

interested me for its 1D-1H as natural or GF relay (have to scroll down after the 1C structure). Has anyone had experience with this? I'm wondering if every GF starts with 1H and how that fares in competition. Any idea how they continue after 1D-1S? 1N can't be balanced because they open 1N for balanced 12-15. I would think responder would want to be able to show spades and then GF.

[akhare]

This is the same approach used by Viking Club -- it seems pretty playable to me assuming that the powers that be allow it...bv

[nigel_k]

I played this for a while before switching to transfer openings. It was 20 years ago and I don't remember much from last week, but anyway:

 

You certainly don't have to start with 1♥ on any GF. 1♠ should be natural and forcing and you may choose between continuations that assume less than GF and standard ones that don't assume that.

 

1D-1S-1N could be semi-natural (stiff spade or 2-2 majors) even if not balanced. Since the opening bid is always 2 or 3 suited you could also play that 1NT is always both minors (but not forcing) and 2♣/♦ is always 5 of that minor plus hearts.

 

The 1♦-1♥ sequence is somewhat vulnerable to preemption but you have more useful inferences than with a nebulous 1♦. The advantages of relays make it worthwhile IMO. You could also play that 1♦-1NT shows hearts so 1♥ is always relay. This means you have to respond 2♣ on balanced hands with no major but that is not so bad as you're guaranteed an eight card fit in one of the minors.

[Cascade]

I think this was standard symmetric.

 

We used to play this but I don't remember much of it.

 

We progressed to a different solution to what Nigel suggested in that we use 1NT as the GF and play 1♥ and 1♠ as natural.

 

The 1NT GF has a cost of pushing some relays up one step. Our structure is:

 

1♦ 1NT

 

2♣ Hearts then after the next relay 2♥ = clubs 2♠ = red three suiters and higher is heart diamond two suiters as usual

 

2♦ Both minors - normal relays but up one step

 

2♥ Clubs and not hearts so spades - normal two suiter relays follow

 

2♠ Black three suiter

 

2NT etc diamonds and spades two suiters

 

After

 

1♦ 1♥

 

1♠ = spades and a minor

 

1NT = both minors

 

2m = that minor and hearts giving responder some additional information

 

and

 

1♦ 1♠

 

1NT = both minors

 

2m = m + hearts as Nigel suggested

[straube]

Thanks for the help.

 

I've always liked this system...

 

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:N...8DsJzCcMXlhdUcQ

 

They don't use 1H as a relay, but they use...

 

1D-1H

.....1N-shows 3 hearts

.....2C-minors

.....2D-good heart raise

.....2H-bad heart raise

 

1D-1S

.....1N-shows 3 spades

.....2C-clubs and a red

.....2D-reds

.....2H-good spade raise

.....2S-bad spade raise

 

Their NT is balanced, so their 1D is unbalanced. I expect they're able to relay the hands out pretty easily after. It would probably help if they played 1D-2H as 5S/4H

 

Egad, opener would be only showing four clubs after 1D-1S, 2C (could be 1-3-5-4)

 

Still thinking about the other suggestions...

[akhare]

I've always liked this system...

 

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:N...8DsJzCcMXlhdUcQ

This is pretty close to my ideal system B).

[effervesce]

I've always liked this system...

 

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:N...8DsJzCcMXlhdUcQ

This is pretty close to my ideal system B).

Almost identical to the one me and my partner play - just different 1♣ responses, and their 1NT range allows them to play 1D-1M-1NT to show 3 card support.

[straube]

I've always liked this system...

 

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:N...8DsJzCcMXlhdUcQ

This is pretty close to my ideal system ;).

 

What's your ideal (GCC-legal) system?

 

I suppose 1N=12-14 balanced,

 

What are your 1D-1M rebids and relays?

[akhare]

I've always liked this system...

 

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:N...8DsJzCcMXlhdUcQ

This is pretty close to my ideal system B).

 

What's your ideal (GCC-legal) system?

 

I suppose 1N=12-14 balanced,

 

What are your 1D-1M rebids and relays?

1♦ = 10-15, 0-5 ♦, including variable NT hands

1M=10-15

1N = 13-15 vul, 10-12 NV 1st and 2nd, 10-14 NV (3rd), 11-14 (NV) 4th

2♣/2♦ = 6+, 10-15, may have 4 card side suit

2♥/2♠ = 5-9, undiscliplined, including 5 card suit with unbalanced hands

2N: Either weak with 5-5 in the minors or possibly eliminating some 5-5 minor hands in certain point ranges in the 1♦ opening

 

Symmetric Relays after 1♣ with 1♦+ and various SP responses. Frequent reverse relays by 1♣ opener with hands that have low slam potential opposite minimum uninteresting responder hands (majority of cases). No relays after 1♦, possible relay over 1M starting with a forcing NT. Possible relay after 2♣ following a 2♦ ask. Not sure it's worth having relays over 2♦ opening.

 

1D - 1M uses raise structure similar to the one detailed in the document (except for 1N rebid).

 

Note that the relays over 1M are icing on the cake and a NF 1N response with SAYC style responses with some sensible raise structure works equally well.