Stupid minors...

[MattieShoe]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

With 5431 distribution and 11 HCP plus the tens and a nine working with my low honors, I felt like I had to open this one. Would you? I bid 1♦ so I'd have an easy 2♣ rebid here, but I don't know if that's technically correct. Assuming SAYC or 2/1, is there a "correct" way of opening this hand?

 

I ask because when I looked at the other tables, I was the only one to open 1♦. I didn't think it was that crazy of a bid, but...

P (9)

1♣ (6)

1♦ (1)

 

So I get the feeling that I was wrong. Is it because 2♣ rebid would mislead partner about length of the two minor suits?

 

 

Not germane to my question, but partner went straight to 4NT and we made 6♦xx with this :D

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

[the hog]

Depends on system and style. I will always open this 1D. Other posters hate the 1D opening and will open 1C and rebid 2C.

Your partner's jump to 4NT is somewhat precipitous. I would like to investigate the possibility of a H contract first. Btw, why were your doubled?

[MattieShoe]

No idea why on the double, just a poor choice I think

(P) 1♦ (P) 4NT

(P) 5♦ (P) 6♦

(P) P (X) XX

(P) P (P)

 

LHO (the doubler) held:

♠ J743

♥ J654

♦ 82

♣ A53

 

I've come to the conclusion that doubling freely bid slams is usually a terrible idea and redoubling usually a very good idea -- the potential gain from doubling is so small even setting them two compared to the bonuses they get for making it, you have to have huge odds in your favor make it a good choice. I'd almost never double a slam unless I thought it was a sac with virtually zero chance of making...

 

So exploring hearts...

(P) 1♦ (P) 1♥

(P) 2♣ (P) ...

 

How would the bidding go from there? 2♠ as 4th suit forcing? And what after that? That's the sort of bidding I need more practice on. Most players go for KISS principle because the quality of partners is so varied in pickup games.

[Mbodell]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

With 5431 distribution and 11 HCP plus the tens and a nine working with my low honors, I felt like I had to open this one. Would you? I bid 1♦ so I'd have an easy 2♣ rebid here, but I don't know if that's technically correct. Assuming SAYC or 2/1, is there a "correct" way of opening this hand?

I don't think you have to open this hand. I think a 2/1 style where you don't open this is workable. That said, I'm always opening this hand. Personally, I'm opening and I prefer to open 1♣ planning to rebid 2♣ over the expected 1♥ reply. I don't like to raise on 3 card support, but I'd bid 2♠ over a 1♠ response. And I'd raise a 1♦ response as well. So assuming no opponents bidding I'd be planning for:

 

1♣-1♦-2♦

1♣-1♥-2♣

1♣-1♠-2♠

1♣-1nt-PASS

 

On the hand in question partner might bid 1♥ first and then ♦ (2? 3? are both natural and forcing? I'm not sure all partners would know to play 2♦ as unlimited in the auction 1♣-1♥-2♣-2♦ but I'd play it as a 1 round force) over 2♣.

 

But really at IMPs with such a good diamonds suit I wouldn't really blame partner for 4nt as partner has a monster, knows about the fit, and really just needs to know if you have the ♥A and ♣A (and if both, do you have a black K).

[Echognome]

3=1=4=5 and 1=3=4=5 hands are often difficult hands. With a stiff A or K I typically prefer to open or rebid NT as a least of evils. I know some will agree and others will disagree. I also prefer to use some judgment. With Kxx A QTxx KJxxx I open 1♣ and rebid 1NT. With xxx A JTxx AKJTx I open 1♣ and rebid 2♣. With xxx K AKJx Qxxxx I open 1♦ and rebid 2♣.

 

With the given hand with good "texture" (intermediate cards) in my suits, I think it's a clear opening. The T9 of diamonds are a lot better than small cards. The T of clubs is a very good card, etc.

 

It's hard to say how the auction would go, as I'm biased by seeing both hands. I know the start would be 1♣ - 1♥; 1NT. From there it depends a lot on system. I personally play that 3♦ would show a 5-5 game forcing hand, but others might play that sequence as invitational. However, responder has a near slam force after the opening bid, so I can't imagine not finding slam after finding a diamond fit.

[MattieShoe]

1♣-1♥-2♣-2♦...

I would interpret that as forcing for one round... probably x55x or x54x and 10-18 points

Of course, with random partners you never know! :D

 

Still, I kind of like 1♦ instead of 1♣ opener. Maybe it's just that I hate rebidding a minor with 5-4 in the minors, when bidding the other will convey more about shape. Normally I only bid 1♣-1Z-2♣ when I've got six clubs or 2335 or some such.

 

Anyway, I'm glad to know my response, while perhaps not totally normal, was at least not totally crazy. :-) I appreciate the responses!

[Cyberyeti]

My partner and I would bid this:

 

1♣-1♥

2♣-2♦ (relay)

2N (minimum, 4♦)-3♦ (GF agreeing ♦)

3♥ (ace or king, we don't cue shortages in partner's suit)-3♠

4♠-6♦

 

The relay after 1m-1/2?-2m is an idea I saw from Tim Bourke and solves an area that many systems find difficult, where opener rebids his minor and you just want to make a forcing noise to get more information.

 

I would open this hand every time, QJ10 and J109 are undervalued by the point count system, this is at least 12 points worth. I would open 1♣ every time, there is no big issue here as if we want to be in ♦, partner will have 4 and will bid them. The time there's a case for opening the shorter suit would be with a weak 6-5 where partner only needs 3 in the second suit.

[andy_h]

Yes, you are right on of your judgement to open this hand. But I'm sure there are conservative people around who would prefer to pass with this hand to avoid a "rebid problem". But one point you should consider is that you are sort of left in a pickle if and only if partner makes one certain bid (1♥) as you are capable of handling everything else (I would raise 1♦/1♠ to 2). And plus, the opponents will be have to rely on their overcall structure (since we opened) if it is their hand and that is certainly better off had we passed and left them be with their opening structure.

 

Anyway having said that I strongly believe in rebidding 1NT with these type of hands if responder bids 1♥. For one, a singleton Ace in partner's suit is not that bad if partner decides to remove 1NT to 2/3/4♥ and I think 1NT is the least distortion of them all. Thinking about it another way, when I open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ I would prefer that to be a pure 5-4+ so we won't ever need to play in a silly 4-3 fit at the two level. I also want my 1m-2m rebids to promise 6+ cards so that helps responder's judgement in bidding a good 9 trick 3NT game or in competitive auctions. Responder would love his Hx holding in clubs much more if he knew 2♣ was 6+cards rather than potentially a 5 card suit. And furthermore, 1NT just could the correct partial to be in!

 

I would even go further to say that my preferred style is to be allowed to rebid 1NT even if the singleton was an x (say Kxx x AQxx Kxxxx) because I love being able to show a pure 5-4+ or 6+m in constructive/competitive auctions than for responder to be in doubt.

 

On another note, other hand shapes which creates similar problems are of course 1-3-4-5 and 1-4-4-4.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

With 5431 distribution and 11 HCP plus the tens and a nine working with my low honors, I felt like I had to open this one. Would you? I bid 1♦ so I'd have an easy 2♣ rebid here, but I don't know if that's technically correct. Assuming SAYC or 2/1, is there a "correct" way of opening this hand?

 

I ask because when I looked at the other tables, I was the only one to open 1♦. I didn't think it was that crazy of a bid, but...

P (9)

1♣ (6)

1♦ (1)

 

So I get the feeling that I was wrong. Is it because 2♣ rebid would mislead partner about length of the two minor suits?

 

 

Not germane to my question, but partner went straight to 4NT and we made 6♦xx with this :rolleyes:

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

for me opening 1♦ with minimal opening strength xy45 hands is systemic. You just have to get your partner to realize that he can't auto correct to ♦ when he holds xy23 after your 2♣ call. That is the price you have to pay to handle these hands like this.

[maggieb]

That is the price you pay for abusing hands like this! :ph34r:

 

The thought of opening 1D with a decent 5-card club suit and 4 nondescript diamonds really hurts. Why would anybody want to do such a thing? The idea of two people agreeing to misbid these hands systemically... brrrr

 

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

 

But that's just my humble opinion. :rolleyes:

[vuroth]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

Much better hand to open than

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

which I think is a clear pass.

 

 

As others have said, I prefer 1♣/2♣ here. 1♦ feels better on a hand like this:

 

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

In other words, i don't hate the distortion with xx45, but this doesn't feel like the right time to use it.

 

V

[pooltuna]

That is the price you pay for abusing hands like this!  :)

 

The thought of opening 1D with a decent 5-card club suit and 4 nondescript diamonds really hurts. Why would anybody want to do such a thing? The idea of two people agreeing to misbid these hands systemically... brrrr

 

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

 

But that's just my humble opinion.  :)

consideration for suit quality is not out the window I would not open 1♦ with [hv=s=skxhxxdt9xxcakqxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

but I would open 1♦ with [hv=s=skxhxxdt9xxcakqxx]133|100|[/hv]

[jdonn]

I think you are making a terrible mistake if you open 1♦ on 3 in a 5 card major system any time other than 4432 (I think it's fine to agree to open either minor with that particular shape though I prefer 1♦). Why would you want two minors to be ambiguous instead of one? Other than 4432 which is just one shape so essentially a fluke and can be ignorred no matter which minor you open, having 1♣ promise 3 and 1♦ promise 4 is huge.

[pooltuna]

I think you are making a terrible mistake if you open 1♦ on 3 in a 5 card major system any time other than 4432 (I think it's fine to agree to open either minor with that particular shape though I prefer 1♦). Why would you want two minors to be ambiguous instead of one? Other than 4432 which is just one shape so essentially a fluke and can be ignorred no matter which minor you open, having 1♣ promise 3 and 1♦ promise 4 is huge.

Just following my mentor's lead. He has won National ACBL tournaments in 6 decades and is in the Hall of Fame :)

[jdonn]

Wow, sounds.... old!

 

By similar logic, I have decided to follow this guy's lead when shooting free throws. After all he is in the hall of fame too, so he couldn't possibly be wrong. :)

[EricK]

I don't think I'd open it - the singleton A is quite a big defect and probably counteracts all the features which caused you to upgrade the hand.

 

If I were to open, I would definitely go with 1♣ - planning to raise 1♦ or 1♠ and bid 1NT over 1♥.

[mike777]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sk85hadjt93cqjt64]133|100|Scoring: IMP

(P) ?[/hv]

 

With 5431 distribution and 11 HCP plus the tens and a nine working with my low honors, I felt like I had to open this one.  Would you?  I bid 1♦ so I'd have an easy 2♣ rebid here, but I don't know if that's technically correct.  Assuming SAYC or 2/1, is there a "correct" way of opening this hand?

 

I ask because when I looked at the other tables, I was the only one to open 1♦.  I didn't think it was that crazy of a bid, but...

P (9)

1♣ (6)

1♦ (1)

 

So I get the feeling that I was wrong.  Is it because 2♣ rebid would mislead partner about length of the two minor suits?

 

 

Not germane to my question, but partner went straight to 4NT and we made 6♦xx with this :rolleyes:

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

Assuming pard understands I open this lite then I open 1c planning on rebidding 1nt over 1h response.

 

Now.:

 

1c=1h

1nt=3d(natural and game forcing)

4d=etc.

[gwnn]

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

Is pass really so terrible?

[jdonn]

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

Is pass really so terrible?

Maybe not but the problem still remains. Pretend the spades are Axx.

[quiddity]

I would pass; singleton ace, 1.5 QT, no majors, rebid problems, 2nd position... but it's really close to an opener. The minor suit tens are beautiful. I prefer 1C over 1D, to avoid misleading partner about shape.

[ONEferBRID]

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777. Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

 

K x x

A

J T 9 x

Q J T x x

 

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

 

1C - 1H

1NT - 2D!

3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )

4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )

5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

[MattieShoe]

I don't think pass is so terrible, but 11 HCP, some shape, JT9 sequence, QJT sequence... I thought it was worth squeaking :-)

[mike777]

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777.  Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

 

K x x

A

J T 9 x

Q J T x x

 

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

 

1C - 1H

1NT - 2D!

3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )

4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )

5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

Yes, we disagree, for me invite hands go through 2c or 2nt. All jumps 3d or higher are natural and game force. Weak hands with long clubs bid 3c and weak hands with d bid 2c which forces 2d. Weak hands with majors simply rebid major or pass.

 

 

btw with your example...no way I bid 3d over 2d. :)

[andy_h]

I prefer the 1C open, if I actually chose to open, and 1NT rebid if partner responds the expected 1H.   But here is where I diffrer with mike777. Responder with a good, forcing hand will use NMF . [ " All forcing sequences will go thru NMF first; all jumps are either invitational- or - weak (whichever you have previously discussed) ]".

 

K x x

A

J T 9 x

Q J T x x

 

♠AQ

♥KQ732

♦AKQ54

♣8

 

1C - 1H

1NT - 2D!

3D ( 4 cd suit, denies 3 cds ♥ ) - 4D ( GF after NMF; stronger than 5D )

4H ( cue ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♦ )

5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 6D

uhh...with 5♥'s and an invitational hand what do you do? Jump to 3♥ and play in a potential 5-2 fit (5-1 here) or bid 2♦ and have opener bid 3♦ with this and you're back with the same problem.

[gwnn]

On this particular hand you have the stiff ace of hearts so anything but opening 1C and rebidding 1NT strikes me as way off.

Is pass really so terrible?

Maybe not but the problem still remains. Pretend the spades are Axx.

Sure I agree that if I open, I'll follow 1♣..1NT, but from her post it looked like she dismissed pass too. Of course, except Gnome and mike777 nobody even mentioned the possibility of passing, but she sort of mentioned it in a negative way.