Positive or Negative?

[kayin801]

[hv=s=s9xhq109dkck1098xxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

Lots of questions revolving around this hand. The background info: my partner and I play 1C = 16+ or equivalent value (in 4th seat, 18+ if balanced) with positive responses being 8+, though frequently with an A and a K and not ultra flat we'll give a positive response.

 

1a) Is this a positive or negative response?

 

1b) Would it change for you based on seat, vulnerability, format of scoring, etc?

 

2) What sort of criteria do you use when upgrading or downgrading hands that are borderline positive? How do you treat stiff honors? How do you treat distribution as wild as this? 10s and 9s? Aceless hands? Other stuff that fits in this area?

 

3a) Would it make a difference to you if it was a long major instead of a long minor? With the above hand, if all the suits are interchangeable, are there specific holdings (say, 7321 instead) where you'd be positive versus being negative?

 

3b) Does it make a difference if, in your system, it's difficult to show a really long minor as responder? (Admittedly, these hands cause problems with the system we play. We don't have this problem with long majors.)

 

 

I know it's a lot of questions, but if anyone with a lot of experience in playing big club has any opinions I'd love to hear them. Thanks!

[Jlall]

This hand has a 7 card suit and a ridiculous amount of spot cards and 8 points! Seriously don't consider giving a negative response with this. You are way overreacting to having a stiff K.

 

There is almost no 8 count I would not give a positive with, maybe QJ Jxxx Qxx Qxxx.

 

Part of playing a strong club system is realizing that the biggest benefit is when you get to create a low level game force and have a great auction. Doesn't really matter what system you're playing, if you are in a GF at the 1 or 2 level AND one of you has shown a suit already you are in great shape over any natural system.

 

Conversely if you have a 1C-1D auction your auctions are not going to be great, even if you have the best possible system over that. You have to negotiate stopping at a low level or finding games if possible as well as finding 4-4 fits and 5-3 fits with both of you having extremely wide ranges. The last thing you want to do is widen your range of bidding 1C p 1D.

 

If it is ever at all reasonable, make a positive. 99 % of 8 point hands should qualify.

[awm]

I'd game force this hand.

 

Generally when in doubt, I assume that opener has a strong notrump. This is the most common type of 1♣ opening anyway. If partner opened 1NT 16-18 (or even 15-17) I'd be game forcing on this hand so I will game force over 1♣.

 

Obviously if partner has some atrocious misfit for me (stiff club, long diamonds, whatever) I might get in to trouble. But there will be problems bidding this hand after a negative response anyway, and this situation is not really all that high probability.

 

In contrast to Justin's post, I'm not that fond of game forcing on "random" balanced 8-counts. The game with 16 opposite 8 often does not play that well. Balanced hands are also not that hard to bid most of the time after the 1♦ response.

[akhare]

I would GF on this hand.

 

Change the ♣K to Q and replace the ♠9 with say the J♠ and it becomes much more questionable whether you should GF with *those* 8 HCPs.

[mtvesuvius]

I generally try not to downgrade any 8 counts, since like Justin said, the precision system in general is so much more effective when in a GF auction. I would certainly treat this as a GF, and I don't may stiff honors much attention when evaluating opposite a strong club opener... Since opener very often has cards in that suit, it is very rarely wasted. With these spots, any 7321 or even 6322 7 count I would probably GF on. Of course maybe not on a Qxxxxx Jxx QJ Jx or something. It just seems counterproductive to play precision and downgrade hands like this.

 

This hand becomes interesting however with one of my partners. We have completely eliminated all minor suit transfers and instead use 1NT/2♣ as the beginning of a long relay for shape/size etc. In order to show this hand, the auction would go:

 

1♣ - 1NT

2♣ - 2♠

2NT - 3♥

 

With 1NT showing 5+m Unbal positive. 2♣/2NT relays. 2♠ showing either 6♣ with a Major Void or 7+m. 3♥ shows 7+♣

 

This is a long painful auction just to show this hand, and I think playing this relay I may downgrade to avoid having to go through this horror (i.e. Relay fun) :(

[Tola18]

Obviously if partner has some atrocious misfit for me (stiff club, long diamonds, whatever) I might get in to trouble.

A comforting though in such situations is, the layout will be terrible at all the other boards too. Thus our tries will anyway probably not cost much.

 

 

It is only playing a match, and the other pair is known to be conservative and rather cautious bidders it may really cost, if say the game is only one down, and any partial is makeable.

But if the game is two down, and the normal partials one down, it wont cost much neither here. ;)

 

 

Ergo. Sound agressiveness pays almost always as long you are sure your judgement is sound. :)