Can you bid this grand with confidence

[Cyberyeti]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=saqxxxhkxdxxxcakx&s=skjxxxhaxxxxdaqxc]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

This came up in a club game and the board was flat in 6♠+1.

 

The grand is excellent, I couldn't see a way of bidding it with certainty as from my point of view with the 5-5 hand partner could have had the same high cards with 3 hearts and 2 diamonds which would be ZP for 7.

 

Anybody have any interesting methods that would be useful here ?

 

I was playing with an unfamiliar partner, but with my preferred partner our auction would have gone:

 

1♠-4♣(void, exclusion, but 4♠minimum reply)

4♥(1/4 and not minimum)-4N(Q♠?)

5♣(yes and A♣)-5♦(any ♦help ?)

5♥(no, but I do have K♥)-5N(still interested in grand)

6♣(K♣)-?

 

And this is where I can't distinguish between AQxxx, Kxx, xx, AKx and AQxxx, Kx, xxx, AKx.

[kenrexford]

1NT (15-17, could have 5-card major)

3♦ (GF, 5-5 in majors)

3♠ (sets trumps, asks for shape)

4♦ (void in clubs)

4NT (RKCB)

5♣ (three) [or 5♦ is 1430]

7♠

 

That works (once edited for tghe right void -- oops). Fairly easy.

[ONEferBRID]

I can't beat Ken's elegant sequence....which clearly allows a 4NT ask, knowing of the Cl-void and shape knowledge for pitches of the 2 losing Diam. [ Ken's 4♥ must have meant "void in Clubs" or some other bid that says so ] .

 

1S - 2H! ( 2/1 GF, 5+Hts )

2NT - 3S

4C - 4D ( cuebids )

4H - 4NT ( 03 14, etc ) I'll be in trouble if 4C cue were the K

5S(whew!) - 5NT ( specific K-ask, accounting for all key cards )

6C - 6D ( 2nd K-ask )

6H ( no Diam K, and normally this would mean Ht K,

     but since Responder has implied Ht A with 5NT,

     then the 4H cue had to be Ht K;

     so 6H must mean 3rd Rnd Ctrl )

 

      - 7S

 

Edit: No need for a fancy interpretation of 6♥ to figure out the holding is K x.

       The 2NT rebid denied 3 cd Ht support.

[Mbodell]

I was playing with an unfamiliar partner, but with my preferred partner our auction would have gone:

 

1♠-4♣(void, exclusion, but 4♠minimum reply)

4♥(1/4 and not minimum)-4N(Q♠?)

5♣(yes and A♣)-5♦(any ♦help ?)

5♥(no, but I do have K♥)-5N(still interested in grand)

6♣(K♣)-?

 

And this is where I can't distinguish between AQxxx, Kxx, xx, AKx and AQxxx, Kx, xxx, AKx.

Wouldn't 6♥ say still interested in slam but need 3rd round heart help? AQ KQx xx AKx and AQxxx Kx xxx AKx are all good enough over 6♥.

 

 

If I can open the N hand 1♣ these type of hands are made for relay systems and we go:

 

1♣(16+ any)-1♥(8+ w/ 2+ controls and 4+ spades)

1♠(relay)-1nt(4+hearts)

2♣(relay)-2♠(55 or better majors)

2nt(relay)-3♠ (5=5=3=0)

4♣(controls)-4nt (5 controls)

5♣(where)-5nt(one of top 2 in each ♠,♥,♦ but no ♠Q)

7♠

 

That's only 13 bids to the 11 that you'd take (assuming 6♥-7♠ completes it).

[Cyberyeti]

We were playing weak NT and not 2/1 so the auction had to start with 1♠ from our point of view and we couldn't use the nice 2/1 sequence.

 

I think for us, 6♥ would ask specifically for the Q♥ and as such would be what you'd do on KJxxx, AJxx, Axxx, void where ♥Kx and ♦xxx is not enough, but ♥KQx and ♦xx is.

 

If you're really sophisticated, you could I suppose bid 6♦ if you wanted partner to cue the Q♥ (he's already denied the K♦ and you know he hasn't got the Q♦) and 6♥ for either sort of 3rd round control

[Jlall]

By far the easiest way to get to slam is to have some auction where south to show 5-5 in the majors and then show 3 keycards (see kenrexford). North can easily bid 7 opposite that, even if souths minor suit lengths are unknown.

 

If south ends up taking control ever it is more difficult and he will have to learn about third round control of hearts via keycard (see mbodell), or some cuebidding auction where north gets to cuebid hearts twice.

 

Those seem like the basic ways to get there. Fill in the details as you like.

[Cyberyeti]

By far the easiest way to get to slam is to have some auction where south to show 5-5 in the majors and then show 3 keycards (see kenrexford). North can easily bid 7 opposite that, even if souths minor suit lengths are unknown.

 

If south ends up taking control ever it is more difficult and he will have to learn about third round control of hearts via keycard (see mbodell), or some cuebidding auction where north gets to cuebid hearts twice.

 

Those seem like the basic ways to get there. Fill in the details as you like.

This is all true, except that if partner opens 1♠, if you bid 2♥ it's going to be difficult to tell partner about the 5th spade, and if you start with a spade raise, it's difficult to tell him about the 5th heart. It's a lot easier over a strong notrump.

 

It is possible if partner looking at the Q♠ then asks for it and you can show extra length, but often they don't.

 

Bidding hearts falls foul of the "Don't bid bad suits on good hands" principle, and certainly the suit is way short in quality of what we bid 1♠-3♥ on (3 of top 5 hons not QJ10, 4+♠ opening hand plus or the old fashioned single suited rock crusher).

[Fluffy]

I though of how to bid this one, and my conclusion was that if I started with 1♠-2♥ I could follow up ONEferBID's follow up and find ♥Kx and ♣AK easilly.

 

However lets get real, I ain't bidding Axxxx as a source of tricks wich might make me hide the club void forever. I am splintering righ away and never finding the ♥K doubleton.

[kenrexford]

OK, let's suppose a weak notrump.

 

1♠

2♥

2NT (hopefully forcing)

3♠ (hopefully GF)

 

If we can get this start somehow, whether 2/1 GF or some other approach, then:

 

3NT (serious)

4♣ (club control)

4♥ (no diamond control, one of the top three hearts)

4NT (RKCB)

5♠ (two with Queen)

5NT (kings?)

6♣ (club King)

6♥ (heart King rather than Queen?)

7♠ (yes)

 

The point is that a cue sequence suggests to Responder that the grand is not there unless partner has the Ace-King in clubs for his serious interest, such that Exclusion is counter-productive. Sure, the hearts may provide diamond pitches, also, but the non-raise of hearts suggests focus on clubs. So, Responder knows more with a 4NT call.

 

However, "serious" is too much after showing a balanced 15+, because Opener has only 16. So, this is not contextually serious for weak notrumpers. Thus:

 

...4♣-4♦-4♥ occurs.

 

This is not as good a sequence. However, the same reasoning works better if Responder takes control and avoids the Exclusion mistake.

[Cyberyeti]

OK, let's suppose a weak notrump. 

 

1♠

2♥

2NT (hopefully forcing)

3♠ (hopefully GF)

 

If we can get this start somehow, whether 2/1 GF or some other approach, then:

 

3NT (serious)

4♣ (club control)

4♥ (no diamond control, one of the top three hearts)

4NT (RKCB)

5♠ (two with Queen)

5NT (kings?)

6♣ (club King)

6♥ (heart King rather than Queen?)

7♠ (yes)

 

The point is that a cue sequence suggests to Responder that the grand is not there unless partner has the Ace-King in clubs for his serious interest, such that Exclusion is counter-productive.  Sure, the hearts may provide diamond pitches, also, but the non-raise of hearts suggests focus on clubs.  So, Responder knows more with a 4NT call.

 

However, "serious" is too much after showing a balanced 15+, because Opener has only 16.  So, this is not contextually serious for weak notrumpers.  Thus:

 

...4♣-4♦-4♥ occurs. 

 

This is not as good a sequence.  However, the same reasoning works better if Responder takes control and avoids the Exclusion mistake.

This would bear no resemblance to the sort of auction a lot of UK weak no trump acol pairs would have, 1♠ would only show 4, 2N is GF, 3♠ would show 3, 3N would say I only have 4 for example.

[jdonn]

Ken I'm confused, why did you forget to have responder start with 2♣?

[Cascade]

Play Relay these hands are trivial then.

 

Essentially it turns into what Justin says - south shows 5/5 in the majors and five controls:

 

1♣ 1♥ - hearts

1♠ 1NT - spades

2♣ 2♠ - 5/5

2NT 3♠ - 5=5=3=0

4♣ 4NT - 5 controls

7♠

 

Strong Club system.

 

Opener's bids except the final one are relays.

 

Fairly plain Symmetric style relays.

[kenrexford]

OK, let's suppose a weak notrump. 

 

1♠

2♥

2NT (hopefully forcing)

3♠ (hopefully GF)

 

If we can get this start somehow, whether 2/1 GF or some other approach, then:

 

3NT (serious)

4♣ (club control)

4♥ (no diamond control, one of the top three hearts)

4NT (RKCB)

5♠ (two with Queen)

5NT (kings?)

6♣ (club King)

6♥ (heart King rather than Queen?)

7♠ (yes)

 

The point is that a cue sequence suggests to Responder that the grand is not there unless partner has the Ace-King in clubs for his serious interest, such that Exclusion is counter-productive.  Sure, the hearts may provide diamond pitches, also, but the non-raise of hearts suggests focus on clubs.  So, Responder knows more with a 4NT call.

 

However, "serious" is too much after showing a balanced 15+, because Opener has only 16.  So, this is not contextually serious for weak notrumpers.  Thus:

 

...4♣-4♦-4♥ occurs. 

 

This is not as good a sequence.  However, the same reasoning works better if Responder takes control and avoids the Exclusion mistake.

This would bear no resemblance to the sort of auction a lot of UK weak no trump acol pairs would have, 1♠ would only show 4, 2N is GF, 3♠ would show 3, 3N would say I only have 4 for example.

What do you want from me?

 

Am I expected to provide every single auction to 7♠, no matter what system and no matter what insane agreements anyone might ever have?

 

LOL

[kenrexford]

Ken I'm confused, why did you forget to have responder start with 2♣?

Thought about it...

[Mbodell]

Play Relay these hands are trivial then.

 

Essentially it turns into what Justin says - south shows 5/5 in the majors and five controls:

 

1♣ 1♥ - hearts

1♠ 1NT - spades

2♣ 2♠ - 5/5

2NT 3♠ - 5=5=3=0

4♣ 4NT - 5 controls

7♠

 

Strong Club system.

 

Opener's bids except the final one are relays.

 

Fairly plain Symmetric style relays.

That's the auction I provided above (with alternate major meanings) through 4nt. But 5 controls aren't enough. xxxxx Axxxx AKx is 5 controls and doesn't give you great confidence that you can bring spades in for no losers. You need some way to place the controls be it denial cue bidding, normal cue bidding, or keycard.

[Cyberyeti]

OK, let's suppose a weak notrump. 

 

1♠

2♥

2NT (hopefully forcing)

3♠ (hopefully GF)

 

If we can get this start somehow, whether 2/1 GF or some other approach, then:

 

3NT (serious)

4♣ (club control)

4♥ (no diamond control, one of the top three hearts)

4NT (RKCB)

5♠ (two with Queen)

5NT (kings?)

6♣ (club King)

6♥ (heart King rather than Queen?)

7♠ (yes)

 

The point is that a cue sequence suggests to Responder that the grand is not there unless partner has the Ace-King in clubs for his serious interest, such that Exclusion is counter-productive.  Sure, the hearts may provide diamond pitches, also, but the non-raise of hearts suggests focus on clubs.  So, Responder knows more with a 4NT call.

 

However, "serious" is too much after showing a balanced 15+, because Opener has only 16.  So, this is not contextually serious for weak notrumpers.  Thus:

 

...4♣-4♦-4♥ occurs. 

 

This is not as good a sequence.  However, the same reasoning works better if Responder takes control and avoids the Exclusion mistake.

This would bear no resemblance to the sort of auction a lot of UK weak no trump acol pairs would have, 1♠ would only show 4, 2N is GF, 3♠ would show 3, 3N would say I only have 4 for example.

What do you want from me?

 

Am I expected to provide every single auction to 7♠, no matter what system and no matter what insane agreements anyone might ever have?

 

LOL

Also this auction would bid the cold off grand opposite AQxxx, Kxx, xx, AKx. If you're playing 2/1 then maybe you can bid 3♥ over 2♥, but if not 2N is reasonable and the rest of the sequence would be the same.

 

I don't know many people that play 2/1 with a weak no trump although there are some.

 

I suppose when I said weak no trump I was really looking for a typical UK acol style sequence whether 4 or 5 card majors style.

[Jlall]

I think kens point in his second auction is that north would raise hearts directly rather than bid 2N if he had Kxx, ergo he has Kx. This is def true in 2/1, have no idea how to play a non 2/1 GF system though.

 

Don't know what to say other than 4 card majors + 2/1 not game forcing is a crappy system for bidding grands.

[gnasher]

Playing English-style 4-card majors with a weak notrump, and starting with a 2♥ response, you might bid:

 

1♠-2♥

2NT       natural, game-forcing, and not denying three hearts

   - 3♠   (4♣ would be a splinter for hearts, so no real alternative)

4♣-4♦

4♥-5♣

5♠-6♣

6♥       (having signed off once, it's probably OK

            to cue-bid the 3rd round heart control)

   - 7♠

 

But I wouldn't respond 2♥.

[Cyberyeti]

I think kens point in his second auction is that north would raise hearts directly rather than bid 2N if he had Kxx, ergo he has Kx. This is def true in 2/1, have no idea how to play a non 2/1 GF system though.

 

Don't know what to say other than 4 card majors + 2/1 not game forcing is a crappy system for bidding grands.

The problem here is that not playing 2/1 1♠-2♥-3♥ is only invitational, and 4♥ feels all wrong.

 

My partner and I would rebid 2N (in our style GF and not necessarily balanced) intending to follow with 3♥ with a 5323, but be somewhat stymied by the 3♠ bid. We'd be better placed than some, in that we'd bid 3♣ rather than 3♠ with a 3523 so 3♠ would show 4 of them.

[ONEferBRID]

Playing English-style 4-card majors with a weak notrump, and starting with a 2♥ response, you might bid:

 

1♠-2♥

2NT       natural, game-forcing, and not denying three hearts

   - 3♠   (4♣ would be a splinter for hearts, so no real alternative)

4♣-4♦

4♥-5♣

5♠-6♣

6♥       (having signed off once, it's probably OK

            to cue-bid the 3rd round heart control)

   - 7♠

 

But I wouldn't respond 2♥.

Isn't it the pits when there is a series of cuebids that go beyond the 4NT level

and you land in the grand slam off the A or K of trumps.

 

Note: I have changed North's hand....but still a good 15 hcp:

♠ QTxxx

♥ Kx

♦ Kxx

♣ AKx

 

♠ KJxxx

♥ Axxxx

♦ AQx

♣

 

After the 4♥ cuebid in Andy's auction ( or mine for that matter ),

South can use the 5NT Grand Slam Force.... with certain "replies" previously discussed.

Eventhough South has the "extra trump" length, and the importance of the trump Q is diminished,

he does need to find out about 1 of the top 2 trump honors.

 

Edit:

Asker should have at least one of the top 3 honors.

Replies when SPADES are trump:

6C = A or K and an extra Sp

6D = A or K only

 

6S = only the Sp Q.. ergo our side is missing the ACE !

7S = 2 of top 3

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Edit:

As an aside:

If HEARTS were trumps ( or in general for either Hts or Sp):

6C = A or K and an extra trump

6D = A or K only

6-trump = Q only

7-trump = 2 of top 3

[kenrexford]

If you happen to play a bizarre system where Opener cannot raise hearts with three of them and you end up in some convoluted loop to 7♠, and partner has Kxx in hearts, ditch the system.

[gnasher]

Isn't it the pits when there is a series of cuebids that go beyond the 4NT level

and you land in the grand slam off the A or K of trumps.

 

Note: I have changed North's hand....but still a good 15 hcp:

♠ QTxxx 

♥ Kx 

♦ Kxx 

♣ AKx 

 

♠ KJxxx 

♥ Axxxx 

♦ AQx 

♣

North can't have that, because he would have bid 5♦ over 5♣.

 

After the 4♥ cuebid in Andy's auction ( or mine for that matter ),

South can use the 5NT Grand Slam Force

He can't do that in my auction, because he might be opposite ♥Kxx.

[Cascade]

Play Relay these hands are trivial then.

 

Essentially it turns into what Justin says - south shows 5/5 in the majors and five controls:

 

1♣ 1♥ - hearts

1♠ 1NT - spades

2♣ 2♠ - 5/5

2NT 3♠ - 5=5=3=0

4♣ 4NT - 5 controls

7♠

 

Strong Club system.

 

Opener's bids except the final one are relays.

 

Fairly plain Symmetric style relays.

That's the auction I provided above (with alternate major meanings) through 4nt. But 5 controls aren't enough. xxxxx Axxxx AKx is 5 controls and doesn't give you great confidence that you can bring spades in for no losers. You need some way to place the controls be it denial cue bidding, normal cue bidding, or keycard.

You are correct.

 

The first round of denial cues will clarify the ambiguity by showing a spade card. I should have relayed one more time.

[effervesce]

I think kens point in his second auction is that north would raise hearts directly rather than bid 2N if he had Kxx, ergo he has Kx. This is def true in 2/1, have no idea how to play a non 2/1 GF system though.

 

Don't know what to say other than 4 card majors + 2/1 not game forcing is a crappy system for bidding grands.

The problem here is that not playing 2/1 1♠-2♥-3♥ is only invitational, and 4♥ feels all wrong.

 

My partner and I would rebid 2N (in our style GF and not necessarily balanced) intending to follow with 3♥ with a 5323, but be somewhat stymied by the 3♠ bid. We'd be better placed than some, in that we'd bid 3♣ rather than 3♠ with a 3523 so 3♠ would show 4 of them.

Alot of standard players play that sequence as forcing as its much more useful than simply invitational. One useful rule is to agree that major suit agreement at 3 level is game forcing. This gives you some of the benefits of a 2/1 approach.

[Cyberyeti]

I think kens point in his second auction is that north would raise hearts directly rather than bid 2N if he had Kxx, ergo he has Kx. This is def true in 2/1, have no idea how to play a non 2/1 GF system though.

 

Don't know what to say other than 4 card majors + 2/1 not game forcing is a crappy system for bidding grands.

The problem here is that not playing 2/1 1♠-2♥-3♥ is only invitational, and 4♥ feels all wrong.

 

My partner and I would rebid 2N (in our style GF and not necessarily balanced) intending to follow with 3♥ with a 5323, but be somewhat stymied by the 3♠ bid. We'd be better placed than some, in that we'd bid 3♣ rather than 3♠ with a 3523 so 3♠ would show 4 of them.

Alot of standard players play that sequence as forcing as its much more useful than simply invitational, even from a SAYC type framework.

So what do you bid over 1♠-2♥ on AQxxx, KJxx, Jx, xx or do you either not open these or bid a lot of bad 4♥ contracts opposite say xxx, AQxxx, Kx, Qxx where even 3♥ might be too many. And these are far from the worst hands available.

 

Any system that commits me to game on an 8 card fit and 10 opposite 10 can't be sensible.