What should this be?

[Cascade]

1♥ 1♠

2♦ 2♥

2NT 3♠?

 

I had something like

 

♠ J87x

♥ Qx

♦ AQx

♣ Jxxx

 

And thought I needed partner to have something in spades for 3NT.

 

What would you call?

 

If 3NT what if the spades were weaker?

[jdonn]

I think you should bid 3♦. I believe the bids are (or should be?) defined this way.

 

3♣: Weak, something like 4216. It's entirely possible you prefer 2♥ over 3♣, but 3♣ over 2NT especially when partner shows something in clubs.

3♦: Forcing showing the hand you held, exploring the best contract. I think it's logically forcing since you bid 2♥ before instead of passing 2♦.

3♥: Weak, probably a (sub)minimum response with three hearts.

3♠: 5 good spades, exploring for 4♠ in a 5-2 fit. KQTxx xx Axx xxx or something.

 

3♦ is the key bid since it's not totally intuitive without thinking about it. I would think of it as the equivalent of a forcing 3♥ bid.

 

As is so often the case over 2NT rebids, there is a strong case to be made for transfers here, the main downside being that it's just one unlikely auction so not very practical overall.

[nige1]

I had something like ♠ J87x ♥ Qx ♦ AQx ♣ Jxxx

1♥ 1♠

2♦ 2♥

2NT 3♠?

And thought I needed partner to have something in spades for 3NT.

What would you call? If 3NT what if the spades were weaker?

I assume 3♠ is just one suggestion? IMO After partner's 2N...

• 3♥ = 10. Should show 3♥ but you have powerful red cards.
  
• 3♦ = 8. A white lie because it should show 4+♦.
  
• 3N = 7. This shape but your black suits are threadbare.
  
• 3♣ = 4. Natural, normally 4225.
  
• 3♠ = 1. Shows five, IMO
  

Having read JDonn's post, I feel that 4♥ should be considered if 3♥ is weak.

[Fluffy]

The way I play I raise to 2♥ (or bid 1NT) with any 3 card heart weak holding. This frees me the 3♥, althou not sure what I'd like it to mean.

 

I think 3♠ should be used as natural looking for 4♠.

 

I normally don't think that much and just blast 3NT, telling the opponents that you have weakness somewhere when you don't ever have a fit to play at the 4 level otherwise might be contraproductive.

[WesleyC]

3D, 3H and 3NT are all reasonable. I marginally favour 3D because that's where you live. If partner chooses to play in diamonds he won't be disappointed.

 

The one bid I wouldn't make is 3S :)

 

I can't see any reason that 3S shouldn't just be a showing a good 5c suit and offering choice of contract.

[Phil]

I'd just bid 3N. Partner should be a 2542 or maybe 1543 with good clubs. LHO is on lead and didn't overcall one spade, so there's a good chance we aren't getting a spade lead or the suit breaks 4-4 if pard is in fact 1543.

 

With a weaker hand and the same pattern I'd try 3♦ as a suggestion of a contract. I don't think its forcing.

 

With a very weak 3 card heart raise I would not bid 1♠, but would bid 1N instead, so I have no idea what 3♥ is. With a really awful 5224 I'm probably passing 2N.

 

Agree with Josh that 3♣ is some 4216. Non-forcing.

 

3♠ is odd. Probably 6 bad ones and some red suit honors I guess. Maybe 5 good ones, but I'm not sure I'd be suggesting a 5-2 spade contract at this juncture.

[jdonn]

With a weaker hand and the same pattern I'd try 3♦ as a suggestion of a contract. I don't think its forcing.

Why would you be suggesting a 4-3 diamond fit at that level when you could just pass 2NT?

 

With a very weak 3 card heart raise I would not bid 1♠, but would bid 1N instead

I don't see why.

 

3♠ is odd. ...Maybe 5 good ones, but I'm not sure I'd be suggesting a 5-2 spade contract at this juncture.

I don't see why not.

[ArtK78]

Since you have the best possible hand that you can have given the previous bidding, you should make sure that game is reached. That rules out 3♥, which can be passed.

 

3♠ would show a good spade suit and suggest a choice between 3NT, 4♠ and 4♥.

 

3NT states that you have determined that there is no choice - 3NT is the final contract.

 

Josh's suggestion of 3♦ on your cards is good. It shows that you have a concentration of stength (not length) in diamonds and allows partner to choose between 3♥, 3NT and 4♥. I include 3♥ as a choice for partner because your 3♦ bid already tells him that you intend to bid game, but that you are searching for the right game. If partner bids 3♥ over 3♦, he would be saying that despite the fact that you are accepting the game invite, it is possible that there is no right game, and you may pass 3♥. I apologize if this seems contradictory to my original statement that you should make sure that game is reached. But if you provide partner with that information and he still gives you an out, you may want to take it.

[gnasher]

I wonder why people keep interpreting as signoffs bids that I think are obviously forcing. Usually it's the other way around.

 

... 2NT-3♦ and ... 2NT-3♦-3♥ are both clearly forcing. If you think one of these should be non-forcing, try to write down a hand where you'd want to bid it.

 

3♦ says "I have enough to accept the game try and good diamonds, and I don't know where to play." In reply, 3♥ says "I have quite good hearts, but not good enough to insist on 4♥. Which game do you want to play?"

[Phil]

With a weaker hand and the same pattern I'd try 3♦ as a suggestion of a contract. I don't think its forcing.

Why would you be suggesting a 4-3 diamond fit at that level when you could just pass 2NT?

 

I think I agree with you here. 3♦ should be forcing. I was trying to come up with a hand with 1=3 in the minors where I was giving a forced preference in hearts where I wanted to play 3♦.

 

With a very weak 3 card heart raise I would not bid 1♠, but would bid 1N instead

I don't see why.

 

Because I don't want to hear a 2♠ call with 3 here?

[joshs]

I guess I disagree with the peanut gallery here.

 

First, as a matter of theory, bids here Shows, not asks.

 

I think the way to think about these auctions is:

a. opener has fairly tightly showed is strength and his approximate shape (1543 or 2542)

b. responder is between 5-10 HCP, and has many possible shapes. He might be 4=2 in the majors, he might be 6=2 in the majors, he might have a thirds heart with 5 or 6 spades, with 4 spades he is unlikely to have 3 hearts, but have have bid it a a descriptive bid (all his points in spades) or even as a semi-psych say a 4324 4 count.

c. if the partnership has an 8 card heart fit, responder knows this, AND if responder goes back to hearts opener knows it. This is not true for any other strain. What this implies is that 3H is NOT needed as a probe for strain, but can merely be a suggestion about level.

d. Josh and others have suggested that 3C should be 4216 weak (5-7ish?). I dont see this. Why can't it be 4216 strong? Or 5215 strong? Or.... These are all hands that might belong in some strain other than 3N (clubs? hearts?). I think as a matter of theory, when both strain and level are in doubt, bidding should be forcing to let you get strain right. This is especially true when you are pulling someone out of a playable (although perhaps far from ideal) contract.

 

So from my point of view the bids here from high to low:

3N Duhh

3S 6S, 2H probably relatively weak spades, nothing special to say about the minors forcing. I would expect something like Axxxxx Qx xx Kxx for instance.

3H non-forcing. With a forcing hand and 3H just bid 4H now.

3D Stuff in Diamonds, usually 3+ Diamonds

3C Stuff in Clubs, usually 5+ Clubs

 

For me the question on this hand is if I should bid 3C (Jxxx is really weak for this bid, but it will let you convince partner sometimes that your weakness is in spades not clubs), or 3D (thats where you live, but partner will quickly rebid 3N with a double club stopper and a stiff spade, as well as with 2 small spades and pretty weak hearts). I don't know, 3C is certainly cheaper, but when you hold AQx of diamonds you know partner is not rebidding 3D next so the space does not gain you much.

Anyway, like Josh I would bid 3D here, I just disagree on what 3C means....

[jdonn]

With a very weak 3 card heart raise I would not bid 1♠, but would bid 1N instead

I don't see why.

Because I don't want to hear a 2♠ call with 3 here?

Phil you might hear a raise with 4 too! I would bid 1♠ on any weak (like 6 or less) hand with 5+ spades and 3 hearts pretty much.

(edited, replied to a post of gnasher's as well then realized I misread it so changed my post)

 

Anyway, like Josh I would bid 3D here, I just disagree on what 3C means....

I don't think forcing showing clubs makes much sense because

- The weak hand with clubs can no longer play what it is almost certain is the best contract.

- It's a bit of a waste. I think, given that you have enough to go to game, weak spades (or else you would bid 3NT), and can't have everything in clubs (partner promised a club honor) there is really no problem hand except xxxx Hx xx HHxxx almost exactly. Too specific and not enough of a problem anyway for me to devote a bid to it.

[billw55]

I don't think this is so complicated. Partner is invitational with 1543 or 2542 (or conceivably 1552). I am obviously max for my bidding so far, so accept: 3NT. 3♦ may be descriptive, but I think it will help the defense more often than it will help us reach a better contract.

[Phil]

Because I don't want to hear a 2♠ call with 3 here?

To both of you, Kxxxx xxx xx Jxx? And Phil you might hear a raise with 4 too!

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

[jdonn]

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

Yes I realized that. I was asking why. What advantage does 1NT have over 1♠?

[Phil]

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

Yes I realized that. I was asking why. What advantage does 1NT have over 1♠?

I think I stated this already. Feel free to disagree, but I haven't heard any reasons to bid 1♠ from you either.

[jdonn]

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

Yes I realized that. I was asking why. What advantage does 1NT have over 1♠?

I think I stated this already. Feel free to disagree, but I haven't heard any reasons to bid 1♠ from you either.

Yes you did. I think this is both of our replies.

 

Because I don't want to hear a 2♠ call with 3 here?

Phil you might hear a raise with 4 too!

I'm saying I would bid 1♠ instead of 1NT because we might have a better spade fit than heart fit, find a 5-4 instead of a 5-3. Your reason was that you prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 5-3 spade fit?

[Phil]

Your reason was that you prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 5-3 spade fit?

I think I have clearly said that I prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 4-3 spade fit.

 

I am not that concerned about foregoing a 4-4 spade fit instead of a 5-3 heart fit. I also think a lot of the time, I will play 2♥ when you play 3♠.

 

I am never losing out on a 5-4 spade fit unless partner has 5 spades, BECAUSE I AM ONLY BIDDING 1♠ WITH 5 and if thats the case I have a 6-3 heart fit.

 

Capiche?

[jdonn]

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

I think I have clearly said that I prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 4-3 spade fit.

I am never losing out on a 5-4 spade fit unless partner has 5 spades, BECAUSE I AM ONLY BIDDING 1♠ WITH 5 and if thats the case I have a 6-3 heart fit.

Capiche?

Ok now it's clear. You don't bid 1♠ with 5 because you will reach a 4-3 spade fit, but by not bidding 1♠ with 5 you only lose the 5-4 spade fit when opener is 5-6? CAPICHE!

 

edit: I see below we are good partners.

[Jlall]

Your reason was that you prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 5-3 spade fit?

I think I have clearly said that I prefer a 5-3 heart fit to a 4-3 spade fit.

 

I am not that concerned about foregoing a 4-4 spade fit instead of a 5-3 heart fit. I also think a lot of the time, I will play 2♥ when you play 3♠.

 

I am never losing out on a 5-4 spade fit unless partner has 5 spades, BECAUSE I AM ONLY BIDDING 1♠ WITH 5 and if thats the case I have a 6-3 heart fit.

 

Capiche?

LOL

 

I know I wasn't even involved in this one but it was very funny.

 

 

Phil you might hear a raise with 4 too! I would bid 1♠ on any weak (like 6 or less) hand with 5+ spades and 3 hearts pretty much.

(emphasis mine)

 

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

emphasis mine

 

ORLY? But then later!

 

I am never losing out on a 5-4 spade fit unless partner has 5 spades, BECAUSE I AM ONLY BIDDING 1♠ WITH 5

(emphasis mine)

 

So first you made sure we are clear that you are not bidding 1S with 5-3 in the majors. Then when jdonn challenges this view, you say IN CAPS that you are only bidding 1S with 5-3. LOL. Then the obnoxious capiche?

 

Jdonn clearly was arguing the whole time for bidding 1S with 5S and 3H, and his arguement was centered around finding a 5-4 spade fit by doing so.

 

You clearly said you would not bid 1S with 5-3, but I guess when you realized jdonn had won this argument you decided to give an argument as to why not bid 1S with 4-3 (which jdonn never mentioned doing), and said that you would ONLY BID 1S WITH 5!!!!!!!

 

Ok I get it, capiche!

 

edit: jdonn posted his while I was posting :(

[Jlall]

As for this thread, I think 3S is natural and forcing. Responder can be 6-2 or 5 good spades as mentioned earlier (AKJTx xx xxx xxx).

 

I think 3C is natural and non forcing.

 

I disagree with the 3D=forcing camp, I definitely think there are hands in the 6-7 range that can bid this way, especially if they are 5242 that do not want 3D to be forcing. For example:

 

xxxx Ax Qxxx xxx cannot pass 2D since it will easily bid game if partner is 6-4 reds, and will at least try opposite 5-5 reds.

 

AJxxx Qx xxxx xx cannot pass 2D since it will try for game if partner has 3 spades, and will bid game if partner is 6-4. After 2N this hand would rather bid 3D than 3N though.

 

etc.

 

I also don't see that much gain in having 3D be forcing, I guess you get to explore below 3N sometimes but that's not enough for me to give up on being able to play the best spot sometimes.

 

Guess I am primitive but I think you can guess the final contract reasonably well after this auction. With this hand I would just bid 4H.

[TimG]

In the 1988 team trials, Meckstroth and Martel both chose to respond one notrump forcing (to partner's one heart opening) holding ♠JT864 ♥964 ♦973 ♣63. Opener rebid two hearts and played there--down at fifty per trick. (I just happened to have read this last night.)

 

I thought it was common to bypass a four- or five-card spade suit to bid a forcing notrump with a minimum or sub-minimum and heart support. I'm reasonably confident I have seen this approach recommended with a six-card spade suit, though that may have been out of the Eastern Scientific context.

 

I think there is a school of thought that one heart - one spade - two clubs - two hearts is a stronger sequence than one heart - one notrump - two clubs - two hearts. Perhaps that is an old-fashioned notion, but I expect it has something to do with the choice made by Meckstroth and Martel.

[cherdanno]

In the 1988 team trials, Meckstroth and Martel both chose to respond one notrump forcing (to partner's one heart opening) holding ♠JT864 ♥964 ♦973 ♣63. Opener rebid two hearts and played there--down at fifty per trick. (I just happened to have read this last night.)

 

I thought it was common to bypass a four- or five-card spade suit to bid a forcing notrump with a minimum or sub-minimum and heart support. I'm reasonably confident I have seen this approach recommended with a six-card spade suit, though that may have been out of the Eastern Scientific context.

 

I think there is a school of thought that one heart - one spade - two clubs - two hearts is a stronger sequence than one heart - one notrump - two clubs - two hearts. Perhaps that is an old-fashioned notion, but I expect it has something to do with the choice made by Meckstroth and Martel.

I think you shouldn't read too much into this. They were just psyching, and as they were psyching they just might the bid that would make it toughest for opponents to find their minor suit fit (over 1H 1S they have TWO possible bids with 2344 shape and a 16 count, over 1H 1N they have NONE). This is a different situation than when responder has a 5 count, where finding the right spot is more important (as it might just be our deal opposite a minimum).

In particular, I can't imagine anyone would play 1H 1S 2C 2H as promising values. Ok, I don't want to make statements about anyone, but I can't imagine Meckstroth or Martel were playing this.

[Jlall]

I think a hand with 0 points (or 1) is different than a normal submin hand. Your goal is no longer constructive at all, and you don't really care at all about finding a superior partial, your goal is simply to steal. If you are playing a standard system your goal is also to steal and not get completely burned.

 

Meck and Martel had different problems though, since Meck was playing strong club. In a strong club system you absolutely know that they have a game, so the only question is what is a more effective steal, 1S or 1N? 2H is too risky since that's the only bid partner can go crazy over, and it's not effective anyways.

 

The best reason to bid 1N in precision rather than 1S is it gives LHO MANY more problems. Why? Because he is likely to have a good hand without spade length. If you bid 1N he cannot really make a takeout double if hes like 2254 or 1354 because he's worried about spade bids. 1444 would be the absolute best because he would have no bid at all. He also can no longer overcall a natural NT. This forces him into making an awkward decision to overcall with a bad suit and a lot of points and risk missing the other minor, or just to pass and hop to defend, or to make maybe a very heavy 2 level overcall, or whatever. Contrast this to bidding 1S and giving LHO an easy takeout double on all of those hand types.

 

I'm sure if meckstroth had 6 points (they play constructive raises) with that shape he would bid 1S.

 

As for Martel, he had no dreams of playing a superior spade partial because his partner likely had a very strong hand. If he was going to play spades after bidding 1S it would be at the 4 level. In an ideal world by bidding 1N he might get to play 2S after passing a reverse on 1H 1N 2S. If partner did not have a very strong hand, 1N would be best as a steal for the same reasons it was for meckstroth. So either way 1N is better than 1S.

 

Again if Martel had 5 points or w/e (maybe 6, not sure if he plays constructive raises) I'm sure he would have bid 1S.

 

edit: Now beaten by cherdano, wtf

[Phil]

Because I don't want to hear a 2♠ call with 3 here?

To both of you, Kxxxx xxx xx Jxx? And Phil you might hear a raise with 4 too!

So we are clear, I wouldn't bid 1♠ with 5♠/3♥ and a bust.

Ugh, now I see the problem. I thought I was losing my mind LOL.

 

To be clear, I would ALWAYS bid 1♠ with 5♠ / 3♥

 

:( Sorry Josh.