Looking at opponents' convention card

[Vampyr]

Is dummy, during the play of the hand, allowed to read the opponents' convention card?

[gordontd]

L40B2c

Unless the Regulating Authority provides otherwise a player may

consult his opponent’s system card

(i) prior to the commencement of the auction,

(ii) during the Clarification Period, and

(iii) during the auction and during the play but only at his turn to call or play.

 

 

EBU Orange Book 7D1(e)

Under Law 40B2 c (iii) a player may look at his opponents’ system card at any time, though this may create unauthorised information.

[jeremy69]

As Law 41D says that declarer plays both hands then dummy doesn't have a turn to play and thus cannot look at an opponents convention card. The right conferred in the EBU's Orange Book refers to a law which also talks about "his turn to play" so again I don't think this allows dummy to look as he doesn't have a turn.

[blackshoe]

What are some reasons dummy might wish to do this? I can think of some: idle curiosity, he's not sure he understood something about the auction or play, he thinks there may have been some irregularity, he wants to draw declarer's attention to something. The last is of course illegal. The other three can wait until the end of play.

 

That said, one might argue that if the laws allow it, he can look (so long as it's not for that last reason above). I do agree with others that the laws don't allow it.

[bluejak]

The restrictions in Law 40B2C only apply if the RA say so. The EBU says the restriction does not apply in EBU events. Thus a player may look at his opponent's SC at any time.

 

So, Vampyr, I am afraid again we need to know your jurisdiction before we can answer the question.

 

As to why an opponent should read it while dummy it is perfectly normal for a bored dummy who has little else to do.

[Cascade]

The restrictions in Law 40B2C only apply if the RA say so.

This is not correct.

 

The law says "Unless the Regulating Authority provides otherwise..." .

 

This means that the default is what the law says. It does not require the RA to "say so". That is if the RA say nothing on the matter then what is written in the law applies.

[blackshoe]

When I'm dummy, I try to follow the play. I figure it's good practice, and besides, I might learn something. :P

 

If the law says dummy shouldn't look at opps SC, then the fact that dummy is bored is no justification for doing so. Also, the fact that dummy may become bored is no justification for allowing (either within or without the law) him do so.

 

Interestingly, the ACBL election wrt Law 40B2{c} is

In addition, a player is permitted to consult an opponent’s convention [sic] card at his RHO’s turn to call.

 

I have no idea what the purpose of this is, unless to avoid "hassles" with players who pick up the opponents' SC half a second "too early", or with players who object to that. Aside from that, I'm not at all sure it's legal (I think the intent of the law is to allow the RA to disallow one or more provisions of 40B2{c}, not to add new ones).

[Trinidad]

So, Vampyr, I am afraid again we need to know your jurisdiction before we can answer the question.

It's in the signature in the OP.

Stefanie Rohan, London, England

I guess you know where that is. :P

 

Rik

[gordontd]

(I think the intent of the law is to allow the RA to disallow one or more provisions of 40B2{c}, not to add new ones).

It doesn't say so: it says "unless the Regulating Authority provides otherwise".

[jeremy69]

The restrictions in Law 40B2C only apply if the RA say so. The EBU says the restriction does not apply in EBU events. Thus a player may look at his opponent's SC at any time.

 

The EBU says, in the Orange Book, that a player may look at any time as specified in Law 40B2c.

This, I think, excludes dummy during the play because dummy does not have a turn to play.

[Trinidad]

Obviously dummy cannot look at the convention card to point out to his partner that he should look there.

 

Having said the above, here is my opinion as a player, not a TD:

I used to play team events only. Before the start of a 28 board match, you have plenty of time to get a good understanding for the system that the opponents play. You can discuss with your partner about particular bids and how you will defend against them. You will ask opponents for some clarification and after a minute or two, you start playing.

 

Then, I moved to another country. Nowadays, I mainly play pairs events with short rounds. I still would like to understand what my opponents are playing and I have that right, but most (>95%) of my opponents ignore our CC's. It would just hold up the play if I start studying the CC the way I want. And that would leave less time for the opponents to discuss the hands in between.

 

Therefore, I usually give up on my right: I quickly check their leads and signals, and see if their general system (Ok, 2/1), 1NT range (15-17) or 2 level bids (weak two's) contain anything unusual. I guess that takes about 3 seconds. We are set to go. But when my partner is declaring, I have the opportunity to do what I wanted to do before playing: Study their CC.

 

In short, in most situations it is absolutely harmless for dummy to read the opponents' CC. It is the most practical time to do it. If someone would seriously object, I would put the card away and seriously consider to read it completely after the hand is over while the opponents are waiting.

 

Rik

[gordontd]

The EBU says, in the Orange Book, that a player may look at any time as specified in Law 40B2c.

Actually no: it says that the EBU's election under Law 40B2 c (iii) is that a player may look at his opponents’ system card at any time, though this may create unauthorised information.

[jvage]

I agree with Trinidad above. Even in team-games, as a player I often just check the basics before the round start. This is just to check whether they use something that will require any agreements with partner. I know most opponents and most play relatively standard. The basic system is surprisingly uniform among most of my opponents, also at the top national (Norway) level.

 

If I became dummy on one of the first boards I may want to study their card in more detail (depending on what that quick glance before the round told me), without wasting everybodys time. I would then study things like leads/signal (if I became declarer on the first board I could be forced to "waste everybodys time" if they played some non-standard signals), or more subtle inferences in bidding, for example how they differentiate weak-two bids if they play "weak-Multi" combined with more constructive Weak 2. These are things that would not affect any agreements with partner and in general would not give any UI.

[bluejak]

When I'm dummy, I try to follow the play. I figure it's good practice, and besides, I might learn something. :angry:

 

If the law says dummy shouldn't look at opps SC, then the fact that dummy is bored is no justification for doing so. Also, the fact that dummy may become bored is no justification for allowing (either within or without the law) him do so.

Now you are confusing what you want with what others want. :D Some people do not want to follow the play, and I was merely explaining one reason why dummy might like to read an SC. I am not suggesting he should do so illegally, of course, but if it is permitted as in England then it is reasonable that he should do so if bored.

 

Interestingly, the ACBL election wrt Law 40B2{c} is

In addition, a player is permitted to consult an opponent’s convention [sic] card at his RHO’s turn to call.

I have no idea what the purpose of this is, unless to avoid "hassles" with players who pick up the opponents' SC half a second "too early", or with players who object to that. Aside from that, I'm not at all sure it's legal (I think the intent of the law is to allow the RA to disallow one or more provisions of 40B2{c}, not to add new ones).

I know, I know, it is such a shock that the ACBL got something right that you cannot even believe it! :lol:

 

The reason is simple: over the years here and on RGB we have had the question what to do if partner makes a call, and you do not know whether it is alertable because you do not know what LHO's call meant: for example, LHO opens 2♦ [alerted], partner bids 2♥: do you alert? So now the ACBL allow you to look at the opponent's SC to find out what 2♦ means and whether 2♥ is alertable in consequence.

[bluejak]

So, Vampyr, I am afraid again we need to know your jurisdiction before we can answer the question.

It's in the signature in the OP.

Stefanie Rohan, London, England

I guess you know where that is. :angry:

My apologies, I should have read it more carefully. I obviously overlooked the sig.

 

Mind you, it is still helpful to put it in the description: while I should have realised the jurisdiction when I first answered the OP, later posts tend to be written without going back to the OP.

 

So, Stef, you may read the SC in England as you will have realised from other responses.

[Vampyr]

Thanks. My next question is whether dummy is allowed to look at his own convention card (and, if so, whether his opponent is obliged to give the card to dummy if dummy wishes to read it).

 

This is perhaps a more important question, since one is sometimes handed a convention card by a pickup or first-time partner.

[gnasher]

Thanks. My next question is whether dummy is allowed to look at his own convention card (and, if so, whether his opponent is obliged to give the card to dummy if dummy wishes to read it).

Have you ever actually needed to know what the rules say about this?

 

Whatever the rules may say, it's hard to believe that anyone would object to dummy's reading his own convention card, provided, of course, that the defenders don't need the card during the play. It's equally hard to imagine dummy trying to insist that they hand it over.

[gnasher]

Whatever the rules may say, it's hard to believe that anyone would object to dummy's reading his own convention card, provided, of course, that the defenders don't need the card during the play.

On reflection, maybe I can believe it. One might reason that not knowing your system is a bridge error like any other, that the normal reaction to an opponent's error is to try to take advantage of it, and hence that it's perfectly normal to prevent dummy's rectifying his error by reading the convention card. Does anyone agree with that argument?

[bluejak]

Same answer, it is a matter of Law. It is not permitted by Law 42B2B unless the RA say otherwise. The EBU has not said otherwise, nor has the ACBL. So you may not look in the EBU or ACBL.

[aguahombre]

Same answer, it is a matter of Law.  It is not permitted by Law 42B2B unless the RA say otherwise.  The EBU has not said otherwise, nor has the ACBL.  So you may not look in the EBU or ACBL.

I found 42B2, but not 42B2B, in the ACBL laws. 42B2 Simply states dummy may act to prevent an irregularity by Declarer. If you are referring to dummy reading his own CC, I can see how he might be trying to right a wrong possibly committed by his side. Since dummy is not a "player", it doesn't seem that reading his card during the play of the hand to speed things up afterward is a bad thing.

[bluejak]

40B2B. Sorry. :)

[barmar]

So, Vampyr, I am afraid again we need to know your jurisdiction before we can answer the question.

It's in the signature in the OP.

Stefanie Rohan, London, England

I guess you know where that is. :(

My apologies, I should have read it more carefully. I obviously overlooked the sig.

I don't think it's a good idea for posters to put pertinent information in their signatures. Readers can opt out of seeing sigs, and I'll bet I'm not the only one does so.

[blackshoe]

No problem with people putting pertinent information in their sigs, but given the capability to block viewing them, they should not assume that if the information is in the sig, that's sufficient. That's why we ask that the information go in the subject (or second line of the subject) or in the body of the first message.

 

Dummy is most certainly a player, although he does not play his own cards — that's declarer's job.