Expert Opinion?

[USViking]

I would like to solicit expert comment on the bidding

of the following hand.

 

The hand was dealt at the BBO Main Room.

 

N-S were strangers. This was the second of three hands

they played together. Neither bid the first hand. I may

post a poll on the bidding of the third hand.

 

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sk92hkqj8daqj75ca&s=sa86ha10754d842ckj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

S 1H

N 4NT

S 5H

N 7H

 

PS: Is there some way to generate a formatted bidding table?

 

PPS: I am not expert or advanced. If my level players are

discouraged from posting in this forum someone please let

me know, and I will cease and desist.

[TylerE]

I don't like the blast of 7♥. The north hand isn't as good as it's count with a massive heart fit. QJ of ♥ aren't pulling full weight. I would have asked for specific kings over 5♥. Over 6♣, I would ask for the ♦K with 6♦, and partner would deny by signing off in 6♥. If partner bids 7♣ to show the K♦, I can count 13.

[hrothgar]

One (simple) comment:

 

It's very difficult to apply standards established based on established partnerships to a pair of pickup who self advertise as experts.

 

I can suggest any number of gorgeous auctions. Not sure whether I would have any confidence that a random expert would necessarily field any of the bids.

 

I'd be far from confident that a random expert would recognize Jacoby 2NT. From the looks of things, South decided to count aces and blast.

 

This might very well be the most practical choice.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

pure luck, you dont want to be in 7H, since 7H is only 50%.

 

Playing with a stranger, your best bet would be 2D after the

1H opening.

If opener responds 2NT, you know, have at most 34HCP

between you, you can end the auction with 6H, should

have fair chances with 32-34HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Hi,

 

pure luck, you dont want to be in 7H, since 7H is only 50%.

 

Playing with a stranger, your best bet would be 2D after the

1H opening.

If opener responds 2NT, you know, have at most 34HCP

between you, you can end the auction with 6H, should

have fair chances with 32-34HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Points schmoints....

 

The only thing that matters on this hand are bullets and the King of Diamonds.

Opener (essentially) has the worst hand possible and slam is still 50%

[USViking]

One (simple) comment:

 

It's very difficult to apply standards established based on established partnerships to a pair of pickup who self advertise as experts.

I am an intermediate player, as my profile advertises.

 

The other guy advertises an altogether different skill level.

 

More on that later.

 

 

 

 

I can suggest any number of gorgeous auctions.  Not sure whether I would have any confidence that a random expert would necessarily field any of the bids. 

 

I'd be far from confident that a random expert would recognize Jacoby 2NT.  From the looks of things, South decided to count aces and blast.

 

This might very well be the most practical choice.

Any player with perhaps even a few days experience should

be able to recognize a homely 5NT asking for #Kings.

[OleBerg]

One (simple) comment:

 

It's very difficult to apply standards established based on established partnerships to a pair of pickup who self advertise as experts.

I am an intermediate player, as my profile advertises.

 

The other guy advertises an altogether different skill level.

 

More on that later.

 

 

 

 

I can suggest any number of gorgeous auctions.  Not sure whether I would have any confidence that a random expert would necessarily field any of the bids. 

 

I'd be far from confident that a random expert would recognize Jacoby 2NT.  From the looks of things, South decided to count aces and blast.

 

This might very well be the most practical choice.

Any player with perhaps even a few days experience should

be able to recognize a homely 5NT asking for #Kings.

Maybe if he is American.

 

With a European, and indeed with a Scandinavian partner, you shouldn't be to confident.

[hrothgar]

I can suggest any number of gorgeous auctions.  Not sure whether I would have any confidence that a random expert would necessarily field any of the bids. 

 

I'd be far from confident that a random expert would recognize Jacoby 2NT.  From the looks of things, South decided to count aces and blast.

 

This might very well be the most practical choice.

Any player with perhaps even a few days experience should

be able to recognize a homely 5NT asking for #Kings.

And any player with a bit more experience understands that asking for the number of Kings is (essentially) useless. Yes, you're well positioned if partner shows 2 Kings. However, even if partner shows one, you probably should still bid the slam.

 

You want to be in grand any time partner has two bullets and the King of Diamonds. Your silly little 5NT # of Kings ask doesn't tell you WHAT King partner has. However, if I knew that partner had one King, I'd probably bid the slam anyway.

 

50% of the time, partner will have the King of Diamonds. The other 50% of the time, I'll be in a decent position to to either finesse or take a ruffing finesse. Slam looks to be (roughly) 75%. So, why exactly am I bothering to bid 5NT?

 

Please note: All this presumes that partner will actually interpret 5NT as # of Kings rather than a specific king ask...

[Winstonm]

My comment is that any but a novice player would know that with the responding hand grand slam is dependent upon the king of diamonds as well as the missing aces. There is really no reason at all not to start with 2D (or 3D if that is a strong jump shift).

 

Blindly taking control of the auction with 4NT shows that the player sitting in that seat was not expert.

[cherdanno]

Any player with perhaps even a few days experience should

be able to recognize a homely 5NT asking for #Kings.

Very true. Those with more experience than a few days will typically understand it as specific king ask, however.

[pooltuna]

posting here is not a problem! just ignor the scumbags that tell you otherwise.

[TylerE]

Sorry, but I don't really think this is a A/E worth question. It basically boils down to: Q: I got to 7 off a needed card? A: So ask for that card.

[MFA]

Sorry, but I don't really think this is a A/E worth question. It basically boils down to: Q: I got to 7 off a needed card? A: So ask for that card.

I agree. There are other BBF categories, where posts like this would be very welcome. I suggest that a moderator moves the thread.

If the A/E forum doesn't contain A/E bridge, the strong players will disappear. That's just how it is.

[USViking]

Any player with perhaps even a few days experience should

be able to recognize a homely 5NT asking for #Kings.

 

Maybe if he is American.

 

With a European, and indeed with a Scandinavian partner, you shouldn't be to confident. 

 

Very true. Those with more experience than a few days will typically understand it as specific king ask, however.

 

OK, OK:

 

Old-fashioned, original, plain vanilla Blackwood is now

a sort of archeological curiosity, unknown to the stratosphere

of the game of bridge.

 

However, there are many, as in thousands, of average

casual players like me, who have decades experience,

who make up most of the BBO popuation, who have never

asked for specific Kings in their lives, and in fact do not

know how to.

 

I was, of course, the South player on this deal.

 

The North player advertised himself as "World Class"

 

Success depended on the diamond finesse, which failed.

 

After the hand I upbraided Mr. "World Class" for not

employing some science on the matter of the number

of Kings held by our partnership.

 

I believe a jump to 7 is plain crazy when two Kings might

be missing.

 

Also, even with one missing King, is the risk of going down

at 7 worth it when the liklihood of making 6 must be much

greater than 50%? Maybe at Matchpoints, but IMPS?

[Jlall]

I believe a jump to 7 is plain crazy when two Kings might

be missing.

OMG THE CLUB KING MIGHT BE MISSING?!?!?!?!

[hrothgar]

I was, of course, the South player on this deal.

 

The North player advertised himself as "World Class"

 

Success depended on the diamond finesse, which failed.

 

After the hand I upbraided Mr. "World Class" for not

employing some science on the matter of the number

of Kings held by our partnership.

 

I believe a jump to 7 is plain crazy when two Kings might

be missing.

 

Also, even with one missing King, is the risk of going down

at 7 worth it when the liklihood of making 6 must be much

greater than 50%? Maybe at Matchpoints, but IMPS?

As I tried to point out at the start of this thread, if you're sitting opposite some random partner its exceptionally difficult to guess what conventions/treatments said player does or does not play.

 

"Upbraiding" partner because he failed to trot out some scientific treatment is asinine on multiple levels.

 

1. The asking bid only works if you and partner are lucky enough that you're playing the same methods. A number of people have tried to point out that the bog standard treatment that you prefer is far from being a consensus

 

2. The asking bid that you propose doesn't provide any actionable information.

 

The 7♥ wasn't a success on this hand. Boo hoo. This doesn't mean that the bid (or the approach) was flawed. Given your ability to analyze this hand, I think that your partner's decision to blast 7 was well justified.

 

As to your original question about intermediates and novices posting on this forum: Anyone should feel comfortable posting questions to this forum. In particular, beginners and intermediates should be encouraged to ask questions.

 

However, in this case, you don't seem to be interested in asking questions. Rather, you're begging people to say "You were right and your partner was an idiot".

 

Don't get me wrong, its entirely possible that your partner is an idiot and has no right to claim a "World Class" ranking. However, based on this hand I don't think he did anything that outlandish. (Certainly nothing that warrants some random pickup partner launching into a bitch session)

 

Moreover, you sure as hell don't come across as smelling like a flower...

[Jlall]

FWIW the optimal strat imo if you don't know if partner plays spec K or number of K is 5N then if partner bids:

 

6C either 0 or the CK bid 6D: Partner will bid 7H with the DK, or 6H with 0 (he doesn't have the DQ so if he showed 0 and thinks you're asking for third round control he will bid 6H).

 

6D either 1 or the DK: Bid 7, you are cold opp the DK and cold opposite 1 half the time, and on a hook opposite 1 the other half.

 

6H either 2 or 0: Bid 7, you are cold or on a hook.

 

This is slightly better than jumping to 7, unless you think partner might pass over 5N-6C-6D with 0.

[USViking]

OMG THE CLUB KING MIGHT BE MISSING?!?!?!?!

I would have gone down two if I had not been able to

discard a spade on CK.

 

I understand, and I am not being snide, that a better player

than me might well see a sure line for getting rid of a Spade

with only 2 Kings.

[Winstonm]

My comment is that any but a novice player would know that with the responding hand grand slam is dependent upon the king of diamonds as well as the missing aces. There is really no reason at all not to start with 2D (or 3D if that is a strong jump shift).

 

Blindly taking control of the auction with 4NT shows that the player sitting in that seat was not expert.

I am quoting myself here in order to further clarify.

 

A real expert sitting North would not take control of the auction with his first bid unless he knew his partner to be incapable of making any intelligent secondary bid - and then the choice would have to be 6H, assuring the best result possible and not attempting the impossible under the circumstances - the best possible result.

 

To claim an expert might bid 4N due to laziness, distrust of partner, ego, or any other reason is to misrepresent (IMO) what constitutes an expert. Part of the reason an expert is an expert is that he does not succumb to lazy or sloppy thinking.

[hrothgar]

Part of the reason an expert is an expert is that he does not succumb to lazy or sloppy thinking.

Have you read "Why You Lose at Bridge"?

 

The unlucky expert had a number of flaws. I don't recall laziness or sloppy thinking being prominent on that list...

[Jlall]

OMG THE CLUB KING MIGHT BE MISSING?!?!?!?!

I would have gone down two if I had not been able to

discard a spade on CK.

LOL

[USViking]

As I tried to point out at the start of this thread, if you're sitting opposite some random partner its exceptionally difficult to guess what conventions/treatments said player does or does not play.

 

"Upbraiding" partner because he failed to trot out some scientific treatment is asinine on multiple levels.

 

1.  The asking bid only works if you and partner are lucky enough that you're playing the same methods.  A number of people have tried to point out that the bog standard treatment that you prefer is far from being a consensus...

Do you play at BBO?

 

There is space in your public profile for listing conventions,

and "Blackwood" is posted in mine.

 

Partner himself employed what I earlier termed "vanilla"

Blackwood for Aces, so it is reasonable to assume that

"vanilla" Blackwood for Kings is also part of his arsenal.

 

 

 

 

2.  The asking bid that you propose doesn't provide any actionable information.

Other experts who have commented here say that chances of making

13 are 50 % with 2 Kings. Do you mean to say that the chances do not

improve significantly with 3 or 4 Kings?

 

 

 

 

The 7♥ wasn't a success on this hand.  Boo hoo.  This doesn't mean that the bid (or the approach) was flawed.  Given your ability to analyze this hand, I think that your partner's decision to blast 7 was well justified.

If I have missed some things in the analysis of the hand,

none have been pointed out by you.

 

 

 

 

As to your original question about intermediates and novices posting on this forum:  Anyone should feel comfortable posting questions to this forum.  In particular, beginners and intermediates should be encouraged to ask questions.

Thank you, but as there is disagreement on the issue I will

not be posting in the advanced/expert forum again.

 

 

 

 

However, in this case, you don't seem to be interested in asking questions.  Rather, you're begging people to say "You were right and your partner was an idiot". 

I certainly was interested in asking questions. I thought my view

of the hand and the bidding was completely right, but I wanted

to know if that would be corroborated by experts. So far I have

some expert agreement with my view, and nothing that really

makes me question the accuracy of my view.

 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, its entirely possible that your partner is an idiot and has no right to claim a "World Class" ranking.  However, based on this hand I don't think he did anything that outlandish.  (Certainly nothing that warrants some random pickup partner launching into a bitch session) 

I think the bid was outlandish for any level of player, especially

for a WC.

 

 

 

 

Moreover, you sure as hell don't come across as smelling like a flower...

I have never thought to depict myself as a flower.

[nige1]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sk92hkqj8daqj75ca&s=sa86ha10754d842ckj]133|200|Scoring: IMP

I would like to solicit expert comment on the bidding of the following hand. The hand was dealt at the BBO Main Room. N-S were strangers. This was the second of three hands they played together. Neither bid the first hand. I may post a poll on the bidding of the third hand.

---- -- ---- 1♥

(_P) 4N (_P) 5♥

(_P) 7♥ AP

PS: Is there some way to generate a formatted bidding table?

PPS: I am not expert or advanced. If my level players are

discouraged from posting in this forum someone please let

me know, and I will cease and desist.[/hv]

IMO 7♥ or 7N are fair contracts for strangers  to reach. It seems reasonable to launch into Ace-asking if you are frightened that partner may pass some other bid that you regard as forcing. Perhaps you should risk 5N after 4N, which would allow you to subside in six when partner has no kings. If he has one, then it is more likely to be ♣K, but a grand is still tempting.

 

Above is one way to format the auction.

[USViking]

I would have gone down two if I had not been able to

discard a spade on CK.

 

I understand, and I am not being snide, that a better player

than me might well see a sure line for getting rid of a Spade

with only 2 Kings.

LOL deserved.

 

I actually think I would have thought of the Diamonds though.

[hrothgar]

The 7♥ wasn't a success on this hand.  Boo hoo.  This doesn't mean that the bid (or the approach) was flawed.  Given your ability to analyze this hand, I think that your partner's decision to blast 7 was well justified.

If I have missed some things in the analysis of the hand,

none have been pointed out by you.

Let's start with the following:

 

Assume that the auction had started

 

1♥ - 4N

5♥ - 5N

6♦ - ???

 

Do you recommend passing or bidding 7♥?