Meaning of cue bid by overcaller?

[cwiggins]

Your opponents are playing Precision. The auction goes:

 

1D* 1S P 1N

P 2D P ?

 

* 1D is alerted as being 2+.

 

Is 2D natural? Or is it something else?

 

Is your answer the same if 1D shows 3+ diamonds?

 

 

Suppose the auction goes:

1D* 1S P 2C

P 2D

 

Is 2D natural or something else in this sequence? Does your answer depend on whether 1D is Precision showing 2+ or "natural" showing 3+?

 

 

Do you have any references that describe this situation? I can't find an answer in Lawrence's "The Complete Book of Overcalls" which is the most complete reference I know of about overcalls but apparently needs to be renamed to "The Almost Complete Book of Overcalls."

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[aguahombre]

yes and no. discussed on another string recently. When a minor is overcalled, most believe that the overcaller's rebid in that minor is most likely a five card holding in that minor unless advancer has raised the overcalled major or otherwise shown support for the major. In fact, one might argue that after a simple raise by advancer, 3 of that minor is a strong overcall with 4-5 in the two suits. A cuebid is just not needed here.

 

In the very old Walsh/Hardy, the overcall itself might be suspect --possibly only a four-card suit, but the rebid in opener's minor is real.

[kenrexford]

I would take these as real diamonds, also.

[Jlall]

cuebid

[skjaeran]

My meta rules say these 2♦ bids are cuebids.

[Phil]

LOL I was discussing this yesterday and gave the wrong answer.

 

I think its a cue bid but with a much lower limit than what you'd expect - maybe a 13 count. I'd want to differentiate a 2♥ call between:

 

AQxxx Qxxx x xxx, and

 

AKJxx, AQxx, xxx, x.

 

It also should be a cue after a new suit as well.

[Hanoi5]

I would use this to check if pd really has the ♦ stopper. Though if he HAS to have it, then it is just a cue-bid showing a strong hand.

[pooltuna]

I would use this to check if pd really has the ♦ stopper. Though if he HAS to have it, then it is just a cue-bid showing a strong hand.

I thought that is why we used TOX and then bid our suit

[gnasher]

If I open 1♠ and partner responds a non-forcing 1NT, we can survive, more or less, by playing two of any suit as natural and non-forcing, three of a new suit as natural and forcing, and 3♠ as natural and invitational.

 

When they've opened the bidding there's less chance that we'll want to bid game and more chance that we'll want to stop in a two-level partscore. It seems odd, therefore, to have one extra strong bid and one fewer non-forcing bids.

 

After the 1NT response I think this 2♦ bid should be natural, and I'm inclined to think it should be natural even if 1♦ promised four cards.

[Jlall]

If I open 1♠ and partner responds a non-forcing 1NT, we can survive, more or less, by playing two of any suit as natural and non-forcing, three of a new suit as natural and forcing, and 3♠ as natural and invitational.

 

When they've opened the bidding there's less chance that we'll want to bid game and more chance that we'll want to stop in a two-level partscore. It seems odd, therefore, to have one extra strong bid and one fewer non-forcing bids.

 

After the 1NT response I think this 2♦ bid should be natural, and I'm inclined to think it should be natural even if 1♦ promised four cards.

The difference is the range of the overcall is much wider, and responder is not expected to false preference or courtesy raise to keep the auction open for partner. Partner is also not expected to bid 2N over whatever suit you bid with a max 1N bid. If your bids are NON FORCING or GAME FORCING, that doesn't work well when your range is like 8-17. If partner is false preferencing or forcing to the 2N/3x level, you get too high too often because the openers lower range is so wide that it cannot sustain playing such a high level. Contrast this to an opener which has a minimum of 12(11) and can usually stand 2N with 22 points or 3x with 21 points and a fit.

 

If you have the lower end of your range (as you usually will) just want to scramble out to your best partial at a low level opposite an 8-11 range. You don't want partner bidding 2N with 10-11 just in case you have bid 2 of a suit with 15 or 16 (or 14). You don't want partner routinely going back to 2 of your major instead of letting you play your second suit. In fact if you are bidding 2x with max non GF hands partner will always be expected to false preference with a max himself it seems like.

 

Also, you don't want to be forced to bid 3 of your major on a mediocre six card suit and a max overcall. But what else can you do? Creating a new suit doesn't seem like a good option (partner might pass?) Much easier to have a cuebid available to handle this problem. You even have the added bonus of being 6-3 in the majors and getting to hearts if partner is 1-5.

 

Also, how often are you going to have a hand that is worth a jump shift? If your max is 17 and your min is 8 (some would say 7?), you won't have a GF that often. Contrast this to an opener which can GF with 18-21 and will often make the 3x bids. So it seems like you will be bidding 2x with almost your entire range of hands, be it a 5-4 or 5-5 8 count, or a 5-5 15 count or 5-4 16 count. This range is just unacceptably wide imo just to have the ability to play 2 of the suit that they've opened. It creates so many more viable options to play jumps are 5-5 strong (except 1S then 3H which should be 6-4 if you play michaels), a jump to 3M as a good 6 card suit, and everything else starts with a cuebid to get more info from partner. This way your 2x range is more narrowed by having the cuebid option available and you don't run into so many problems.

 

Of course the GF range will be narrow regardless of how you play a cuebid, but my point is that a GF or NON GF range is not great in this scenario, where you will almost always have a NON GF range and need to split it into NON GF WEAK and NON GF INVITE. That is the point of the cue.

 

As an added bonus you can stop in 2 of your major if you want by being able to cuebid. That alone is worth a lot.

 

FWIW I used to believe that this should be natural even if they opened a natural 1x but I really don't think it's worth it anymore and have had great results with playing this as a cuebid.

[WesleyC]

Nice posts by Phil and Jlall.

 

One thing that I noticed watching the BB recently is that for a lot of top internationals (who over-call very lightly), their 1NT advance in this spot is very wide ranging (perhaps 7-13). Playing the cue-bid as showing full opening values is necessary to sort out such a wide range.