Where did we go wrong?

[MattieShoe]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=s5haq2da543cakqt9&w=sq97ht5dqjt76cj65&e=sak8642h743d8c743&s=sjt3hkj986dk92c82]399|300|Scoring: IMP

W N E S

-- -- -- P

P 1♣ P 1♥

P 3♦ P 3NT

P P P [/hv]

 

I was north on this hand and we ended up at 3NT, and happened to make 6 thanks to Q♦ lead. But this hand should have been in hearts. I'm trying to figure out where the auction went wrong. Should I have bid 4♥ over 3NT? or should partner have rebid hearts rather than NT? Or did we go wrong somewhere else?

 

We were playing vanilla SAYC stuff, nothing exciting...

[aguahombre]

even playing sayc, there is no need to go jumping around to 3D by opener on the 2nd round. A 2D reverse gets you started. Then it is easy to find the heart fit at a comfortable level and go from there.

[MattieShoe]

Ahh, makes sense... I thought I had 18 HCP at the time so I thought it was a wee bit strong for 2♦, but now I see I had 17 HCP. Makes sense now. As always, the bid I screwed up is the one I wasn't even paying attention to. :-)

[Walddk]

Ahh, makes sense... I thought I had 18 HCP at the time so I thought it was a wee bit strong for 2♦, but now I see I had 17 HCP. Makes sense now. As always, the bid I screwed up is the one I wasn't even paying attention to. :-)

No, you have a 19 count, but you seem to think that there is a limit to a reverse. There is not, other than it is not as strong as a 2♣ opening. 2♦ shows (16)17-21 hcp with at least five clubs and four diamonds; an excellent description of your hand.

 

Roland

[MattieShoe]

Man I shouldn't post late at night :P I did have 20 points, 19 HCP, which is why I jumpshifted.

 

The ACBL SAYC system booklet I've got says reverses indicate 16-18 points

 

Rebids with a medium hand (16-18 points):

• Jump raise of responder's suit of jump rebid of opener's suit
  
• Reverse in new suit
  
• Non-reverse bid in new suit (13-18 points)
  

Rebids with maximum hand (19-21 or 22 points) opener must make a very strong rebid:

• Jump in notrump
  
• double jump raise of responder's suit or double-jump rebid of opener's suit
  
• jump shift in a new suit
  

. . . ?

 

I've mostly played bridge with family, which has lots of sloppy bidding. It's definitely the weakest part of my game :-)

[helene_t]

Mattie, that booklet is definitely wrong on that point. A reverse is 16-21 as Roland said. In fact, your jump to 3♦ cannot be a natural bid since a strong hand with both minors would have bid 2♦. It must be a splinter raise of hearts or something like that.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=s5haq2da543cakqt9&w=sq97ht5dqjt76cj65&e=sak8642h743d8c743&s=sjt3hkj986dk92c82]399|300|Scoring: IMP

W N E S

-- -- -- P

P 1♣ P 1♥

P 3♦ P 3NT

P P P [/hv]

 

I was north on this hand and we ended up at 3NT, and happened to make 6 thanks to Q♦ lead. But this hand should have been in hearts. I'm trying to figure out where the auction went wrong. Should I have bid 4♥ over 3NT? or should partner have rebid hearts rather than NT? Or did we go wrong somewhere else?

 

We were playing vanilla SAYC stuff, nothing exciting...

In the bidding is 3♦ supposed to be stronger than 2♦?

[MattieShoe]

Yeah, I meant it as a jump-shift indicating 19-21 points...

 

Hmm splinter would be 4♦ would it not? 2♦ would be weak in standard SAYC, indicating 6 card diamond suit with 3 honors, less than opening, no 4 card major, etc... yes?

 

To be clear, I'm not arguing with the suggestions, just trying to understand :-)

[pooltuna]

Yeah, I meant it as a jump-shift indicating 19-21 points...

 

Hmm splinter would be 4♦ would it not? 2♦ would be weak in standard SAYC, indicating 6 card diamond suit with 3 honors, less than opening, no 4 card major, etc... yes?

 

To be clear, I'm not arguing with the suggestions, just trying to understand :-)

3♦=splinter for ♥

4♦=exclusion

[Phil]

I see this one over and over.

 

Newer players (and this can be people that have played for 2-3 years) seem to understand that while a reverse shows a good hand, that a jump shift must show an even better hand.

 

Therefore,

 

1♣ - 1♠

3♥

 

is stronger than:

 

1♣ - 1♠

2♥

 

I even played against a client (who had previously won a national the summer before) in the desert last year that said the same thing in a roundabout way.

[ONEferBRID]

Where did you go wrong?

 

2D Reverse is adequate and forcing for 1 Rnd.

3D! Reverse-Jump, I play as a splinter for Responder's suit.

( Yes, even in Phil's example, the 3H! Reverse-jump would be a splinter for Spades -- a jump over a forcing bid ) .

 

Over the special 1C>> 2D Reverse:

2H = 5+ card suit, forcing

2S! ( the other major) is Lebensohl.

 

Over 2H, you easily get the Ht agreement game, and a frisky Opener may push on past game.

[MattieShoe]

Thanks for the advice guys :-)

[neilkaz]

even playing sayc, there is no need to go jumping around to 3D by opener on the 2nd round.  A 2D reverse gets you started. Then it is easy to find the heart fit at a comfortable level and go from there.

Exactly ! Reverse are unlimited. They are forcing 1 rd anyhow, and with the GF monsters, you GF next, or just bid game.

 

This is a great thread for B/I with good responses and an OP who has responded prompty and often to the advice given.

 

I hope we can see more of this in B/I !!

[RichMor]

Man I shouldn't post late at night  :) I did have 20 points, 19 HCP, which is why I jumpshifted. 

 

The ACBL SAYC system booklet I've got says reverses indicate 16-18 points

 

Rebids with a medium hand (16-18 points):

• 
   
  
• Jump raise of responder's suit of jump rebid of opener's suit
   
  
• Reverse in new suit
   
  
• Non-reverse bid in new suit (13-18 points)
   
  

Rebids with maximum hand (19-21 or 22 points) opener must make a very strong rebid:

• 
   
  
• Jump in notrump
   
  
• double jump raise of responder's suit or double-jump rebid of opener's suit
   
  
• jump shift in a new suit
   
  

. . . ?

 

I've mostly played bridge with family, which has lots of sloppy bidding.  It's definitely the weakest part of my game :-)

Mattie,

 

What you quoted from the SAYC booklet came from the section about opener's rebids after a major suit opening.

 

The line in the booklet about rebids after minor suit openings says: Responses and later bidding generally follow the ideas set down in the previous section. So I can see why you thought 3♦ was stronger and natural. The booklet is incomplete in this area. :huh:

 

As the other posters said, a reverse after a minor suit opening and partner's 1-level response is forcing and pretty much umlimited.

 

RichM

[P_Marlowe]

Responder has no reason to bid 3NT, he only has JTx in spades,

partner told you he has 5-4 in the minors, i.e. it is nearly a certainty,

that they have 8 spades, somes 9 spades.

 

3D was gf, why not bid 3H? 3H showes a 5 card suit, and is forcing.

If partner wants to play 3NT, but needs some help, he can bid 3S over 3H.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I leave it to others to discuss, if 3D is natural or a splinter, the old

fashioned way is to play it as natural, but there is a lot to be said for playing

3D as a splinter.

But this has nothing to do with the issue you raised.

Make it a 1D opening and a 3C jump shift, i.e. just switch the minors.

[mike777]

Yes, reverses can be and are pretty confusing. The BBO forums have plenty of examples of reverses and can help alot.

 

 

Jump reverses are even more confusing (1c=1h=3d?). I would venture most of us play them as some sort of splinter but in any event reading the forum can help.

 

So we got:

1) reverses by opener(1c=1h=2d)

2) jump reverses by opener(1c=1h=3d)

3) jump shifts by opener(1d-1h-3c)

 

On top of all of that we got jump shifts by responder(1c=2d), double jump shifts by responder(1c=3d) and reverses by responder(1c=1d=1nt=2h).........( all another thread)

 

confusing, but hang in there....and best wishes.

[jjbrr]

This is a good thread.

 

For the sake of completeness, after North reverses with 2♦, South can bid 2NT to show a balanced hand with no support for either minor, and north can pattern out by bidding 3♥. So now north has shown a great hand with 1345 or 0346 shape, and you're still at a low level so you have the ability to cuebid or sign off or correct to NT when a ♥ fit doesn't exist. Very descriptive auction.

[nigel_k]

Just about all experts play a reverse as forcing so there's no need to jump reverse with a strong hand. But I think bidding 3♦ with 19 is just old-fashioned, not flatout wrong as some have suggested. The real problem is South's 3NT bid. Either 3♥ or 3♠ fourth suit forcing is much better. North should bid 4♥ next in either case.

[MattieShoe]

I'm convinced :-) Next time I'll just do a reverse and hopefully partner won't pass me out. It's dicey sometimes playing with random partners in the relaxed bridge room. Sometimes dicey for my partners too! B)

[Mbodell]

I'm convinced :-) Next time I'll just do a reverse and hopefully partner won't pass me out. It's dicey sometimes playing with random partners in the relaxed bridge room. Sometimes dicey for my partners too! :D

While this is true, I've learned that unless you are playing in some sort of hugely important (for you) event it is best not to mastermind and best to just make the right bid and assume your partner will also make the right bid. This is the good thing to do because:

 

1. When your partner is also making the right bid and understanding the right bid then you are playing like good players would.

 

2. It is good practice to make the right decisions for when you are playing with better partners in the future.

 

3. You may help your partner learn the right bids.

 

4. You want to know what the right bids are so you can understand what your good opponents are doing.

 

5. Good people who observe you doing the right thing are more likely to play with you in the future (partners, kibitzers, and opponents can all be evaluating your calls).

 

6. You can vent to your friends (online or here in BBF) when your partner does some crazy thing like pass your reverse.

[MattieShoe]

I'm convinced :-)  Next time I'll just do a reverse and hopefully partner won't pass me out.  It's dicey sometimes playing with random partners in the relaxed bridge room. Sometimes dicey for my partners too!  :D

While this is true, I've learned that unless you are playing in some sort of hugely important (for you) event it is best not to mastermind and best to just make the right bid and assume your partner will also make the right bid. This is the good thing to do because:

 

1. When your partner is also making the right bid and understanding the right bid then you are playing like good players would.

 

2. It is good practice to make the right decisions for when you are playing with better partners in the future.

 

3. You may help your partner learn the right bids.

 

4. You want to know what the right bids are so you can understand what your good opponents are doing.

 

5. Good people who observe you doing the right thing are more likely to play with you in the future (partners, kibitzers, and opponents can all be evaluating your calls).

 

6. You can vent to your friends (online or here in BBF) when your partner does some crazy thing like pass your reverse.

I agree! I try not to get gun-shy with partners and mastermind the bidding. I do avoid some artificial conventions like splinters when playing with a beginner. Shall I vent?

 

Passing out 2♣ opening, that I even alerted as artificial and strong.

Responding 2NT over intervening bid because 1NT wasn't available. (6 points, 4333 dist, opponent's suit NOT stopped)

Passing 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ sequence.

Passing out 2NT opener with 9 points and 6 card major. (?!)

Bidding 4♦ over 3NT when they have NT distribution, a 4 card diamond suit, and a mediocre hand.

 

Misunderstanding a bid or making a poor bid happens sometimes and usually they don't repeat it over and over again. My bigger issues are usually with their play, not their bidding.

 

In notrump, going for a 2-deep finesse in a 5 card fit rather than attacking the 9 card fit headed by AK9. Taking losers early seems to be the hardest thing for beginners and man, it stings in notrump. And they do it over and over and over again! :huh: The funny part is they think I'm sort of genius when I actually attack the long suit in that situation.

 

Avoiding playing trump like the plague with 9 card fit and no crossruff potential because it's headed by KJ. Suck it up, take your losers, prevent their trumping your good tricks! ARG! :D

 

I make plenty of mistakes too, and I'm good natured about mistakes... I never throw tantrums, but sometimes I admit my blood pressure goes up a notch or two when that stuff happens :-)

 

The other one that annoyed me recently... I was dealt a 3NT opener for the first time ever (26HCP, 4-3-3-3, all suits stopped... perfect!) and partner left, and a defender switched seats to my partner causing an automatic redeal. I was so mad! :-)