Help with slam bidding please

[nick_s]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq653hkt874d3ckj5&s=sat72haqdakjt74ct]133|200|Scoring: MP

P 1♦

1♥ 1♠

3♠ 4♦

4♠ 5♣

6♠[/hv]

 

Clearly we went off the rails here, but we can't decide where.

 

For my part (I was S), after hearing 4♠ I decided that RKCB wouldn't tell me what I wanted to know (strong trumps). In the olden days I would have bid 5♠ to ask for good trumps, but my understanding is that it asks for a club control now. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So I decided that a club cue would show a heart control and 2nd round control of clubs and focus attention on the quality of his spades.

 

Partner didn't see it that way :(. He decided that I must be asking for the K♥ and bid 6♠.

[aguahombre]

Probably a minority view, but I like your non jump shift 1S rebid, and I like your pard's 3S rebid. Also like your 4D, But Partner decided his bad spades, short diamond and wasted values in at least one round suit were not good and signed off in 4S.

 

I would not torture pard again with 5c, but if he really thought you wanted the heart king, he would have bid 5H and only bid 6s with both the heart king and good spades--so nothing after 4S seems right to me.

[the hog]

Personally I really dislike 4D. Pd has shown an unbalanced hand with long Ds and 4S. In this context a stiff in Ds is unlikely to be of much use. I would prefer a cue to show A/K/Q of Ds here. Further the C cards are not likely to be carrying much weight opposite partner's hand. I would simply sign off in 4S.

[aguahombre]

Personally I really dislike 4D. Pd has shown an unbalanced hand with long Ds and 4S. In this context a stiff in Ds is unlikely to be of much use. I would prefer a cue to show A/K/Q of Ds here. Further the C cards are not likely to be carrying much weight opposite partner's hand. I would simply sign off in 4S.

Assume you mean that, as North, you would dislike Partner's 4d --which means what you say it means. And, you would sign off in 4S as North did.

[bill1157]

the bidding is fine through 4♠. 5♣ is pointless ( i guess it means "partner I have something better than xx in clubs") and the final 6♠ bid is too much with such middling trumps.

 

Bill

[Mbodell]

For my part (I was S), after hearing 4♠ I decided that RKCB wouldn't tell me what I wanted to know (strong trumps).

I sort of agree. But what about before you heard 4♠? Isn't it quite likely since you hold AQ♥ that partner's reply over 4♦ will be 4♠? It depends a little on your cue bidding style but how are you really going to ask what you need over 4♥ or 4♠ by partner once you bid 4♦. I think if you bid 4♦ (and don't have some non-serious 3nt type agreement) you aren't going to get what you need from partner. What you need to know most about from partner, once he bids 3♠, are the ♣A and the ♠KQ. Sure the ♥K and/or ♦Q would be useful cards, but you can finesse them at worst, and really it is the black cards you are desperate to find. If you aren't going to accept a sign off from partner (and are going to the 5 level anyways) why not keycard over 3♠? Here you'd hear you were missing 2 keycards and end up in 5♠. If you were missing but one you could ask for the Q. The bottom line is you will know where you want to be over every keycard answer, so why not key card?

[kenrexford]

Here's the most obvious problem for me.

 

I don't like when people just decide what the strong hand must be looking for unless there is no choice but to guess. Here, 5♥ by Responder to announce the heart makes sense, if that's what he thought, not 6♠.

 

I'm not sure what Opener's calls meant, so I don't know if I like them or not. I read your explanation, but that seems too weird. I cannot imagine a cuebidding method where a 5♣ cue directly shows second round club control but infers first-round heart control. That seems somehow backwards.

[Codo]

1. 5 Club as 1. round control in hearts and 2round control in spades and please look at your trump quality is too esoteric to invent it at the table. It may be the logical bid (I doubt that) but surely not in the BI section.

 

2. I have no idea how I had understood 5 club at the table. But after I had signed of in 4 spade already and with all these goodies, I must bid 6 spade now.

 

3. If you had bid a simple RCKB after 3 Spade, you had avoided this slam, so maybe this tool had worked as it should.

 

4. RCKB had told you about the numbers of KCs. If partner had the ace of club and the queen of spades, slam is still fine-(but much worse then with KQxx in spades of course).

 

5. You should use the same style as your partner. If he understood your 4 diamond bid right and signed of in 4 spade, you should respect it. Else, why did you bid 4 diamond at all?

[gordontd]

Personally I really dislike 4D. Pd has shown an unbalanced hand with long Ds and 4S. In this context a stiff in Ds is unlikely to be of much use. I would prefer a cue to show A/K/Q of Ds here. Further the C cards are not likely to be carrying much weight opposite partner's hand. I would simply sign off in 4S.

Do you have the auction the wrong way up? No, that doesn't make sense either, but there's clearly some confusion here.

[mcphee]

I thought all was fine to 3S. Limit values for S and now the the good hand advances with 4D, partner does not co-operate and passes. Why is the S hand now bidding again? To keep bidding does not involve your partner in the game. You may feel your point about the C value is good, it's not. For all the S hand knows partner may have the KQxx in trumps you seek, but do you really for one second think if they held those marvelous trumps along with the K of H they would not bid 4H or 5C with that A?

 

Sorry, you can not bid again as S.

[the hog]

Personally I really dislike 4D. Pd has shown an unbalanced hand with long Ds and 4S. In this context a stiff in Ds is unlikely to be of much use. I would prefer a cue to show A/K/Q of Ds here. Further the C cards are not likely to be carrying much weight opposite partner's hand. I would simply sign off in 4S.

Do you have the auction the wrong way up? No, that doesn't make sense either, but there's clearly some confusion here.

Yes I do have it the wrong way up. I read this too quickly and assumed Nth bid 4D.

[mike777]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq653hkt874d3ckj5&s=sat72haqdakjt74ct]133|200|Scoring: MP

P  1♦

1♥ 1♠

3♠ 4♦

4♠ 5♣

6♠[/hv]

 

Clearly we went off the rails here, but we can't decide where.

 

For my part (I was S), after hearing 4♠ I decided that RKCB wouldn't tell me what I wanted to know (strong trumps). In the olden days I would have bid 5♠ to ask for good trumps, but my understanding is that it asks for a club control now. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)  So I decided that a club cue would show a heart control and 2nd round control of clubs and focus attention on the quality of his spades.

 

Partner didn't see it that way B). He decided that I must be asking for the K♥ and bid 6♠.

heck I would have just rkc over 3s and been in 5s. :(

[Jlall]

Getting past the 4 level was souths fault, don't get me wrong, but norths final 6S bid is from outer space. 6S was definitely the worst bid in the auction. The hand has no keycards and very minimum HCP and bad trumps and the stiff D is not great anymore etc etc.

 

Also it is criminal to not jump shift with the south hand. South has a power house, and a hand worth a GF and can easily show it over 1H. If you don't jump shift with a great 18 count that is totally prime with a great suit and 2 honors in partners suit then when? It isn't really the risk that partner passes 1S when it's wrong (small but possible), it's more the point that you can never show a hand this good after just bidding 1S. This can manifest itself by missing slam, or by getting too high overbidding later to try to catch up (which is exactly what happened here).

 

If the auction had started 1D 1H 2S south would not feel the pressure to overbid later as he has shown his values.

[nick_s]

Thanks for the help with this.

 

I'm coming around to the idea that I (south) should have used RKCB over 3♠ instead of starting a cue-bidding sequence. That way I can at least stop in 5♠. In the back of my mind I was thinking that I wanted to be in slam opposite KQxx Kxxx xx xxx, which persuaded me to keep going over 4♠.

 

I think Justin is absolutely right though - the hand is much easier if I get it off my chest immediately with a jump rebid of 2♠.

 

 

Aside: I confess I'm more of an intermediate/advanced than a beginner/intermediate, but I prefer to post in the B/I forum because you kind folks tend to give better explanations for things posted here. -- That and 2/1 is still a very new system for me. My apologies if this hand didn't really belong here.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

For my part (I was S), after hearing 4♠ I decided that RKCB wouldn't tell me what I wanted to know (strong trumps).

<snip>

One of the few things RKCB tells you, is, how good your combined

trumps are.

Nobody asks you to bid 6S, if partner showes only 1KC without

the Queen, after he showed 1KC, you still have room to ask for

the Queen.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

Thanks for the help with this.

 

I'm coming around to the idea that I (south) should have used RKCB over 3♠ instead of starting a cue-bidding sequence. That way I can at least stop in 5♠. In the back of my mind I was thinking that I wanted to be in slam opposite KQxx Kxxx xx xxx, which persuaded me to keep going over 4♠.

 

I think Justin is absolutely right though - the hand is much easier if I get it off my chest immediately with a jump rebid of 2♠.

 

 

Aside: I confess I'm more of an intermediate/advanced than a beginner/intermediate, but I prefer to post in the B/I forum because you kind folks tend to give better explanations for things posted here. -- That and 2/1 is still a very new system for me. My apologies if this hand didn't really belong here.

I thought some more about this hand. First off it is a tough one for us nonexperts.

I understand if many of us get to 5s but with rkc we should never get to 6s.

One possible auction is:

 

p=1d=1h

2s=3s

4d=4s?

p

 

2s=game force with two suits, lots of hcp and controls.

3s=maximum after pass, 4s would be minimum

4s=no outside aces and no great spade suit.

[ONEferBRID]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq653hkt874d3ckj5&s=sat72haqdakjt74ct]133|200|Scoring: MP

P  1♦

1♥ 1♠

3♠ 4♦

4♠ 5♣

6♠[/hv]

 

Clearly we went off the rails here, but we can't decide where.

 

For starters, the 1-over-1 1♠ rebid is non-forcing.

South is worth a 2S jump-shift.

That strong bid might solicit a subsequent 4♥ cue over 4♦.

Then South is ready to make sure they are not off 2 key cards:

 

p - 1♦

1♥-2♠-jump

3♠-4♦

4♥-4NT

5♣( 0 or 3 ) - 5♠ duh

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq653hkt874d3ckj5&s=sat72haqdakjt74ct]133|200|Scoring: MP

P  1♦

1♥ 1♠

3♠ 4♦

4♠ 5♣

6♠[/hv]

 

Clearly we went off the rails here, but we can't decide where.

 

For starters, the 1-over-1 1♠ rebid is non-forcing.

South is worth a 2S jump-shift.

That strong bid might solicit a subsequent 4♥ cue over 4♦.

Then South is ready to make sure they are not off 2 key cards:

 

p - 1♦

1♥-2♠-jump

3♠-4♦

4♥-4NT

5♣( 0 or 3 ) - 5♠ duh

a much better start! I really hated 1♠. It smacks of trying to mastermind the auction instead of telling partner what your hand is and getting his cooperation.