Splinter or Cuebid

[jmcw]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk953haj64dakj72c]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♦2♣ P 2♥

? [/hv]

Partner's 2 ♥ call is 10+ and forcing for 1 round. Is it better to splinter here or cue bid and why.

 

I prefer the Cue bid for a number of reasons.

 

1. Keeps the bidding lower.

2. My next bid will show clear slam intent.

3. Most importantly, can I reasonably expect partner to bid anything other than

4♥ if I splinter.

 

Some will say splinter always, so now you may take the opportunity to defend your action. :angry:

[Cascade]

You seem to have an extra PASS in your auction.

[the hog]

Didn't partner pass?

[bid_em_up]

Is the auction really supposed to be:

 

1♦-(2♣)-2♥-(p)

?

 

This would make more sense.

[jmcw]

 

1♦-(2♣)-2♥-(p)

?

 

Yes that's it thanks

[Fluffy]

the way I play this is 4 clubs to be followd by 5 clubs, but can see the merit of 3♣ followed by 5.

[Codo]

I like 4 club, it has these messages: I have a good hand outside club and I have short clubs.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk953haj64dakj72c]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♦2♣ P 2♥

? [/hv]

Partner's 2 ♥ call is 10+ and forcing for 1 round. Is it better to splinter here or cue bid and why.

 

I prefer the Cue bid for a number of reasons.

 

1. Keeps the bidding lower.

2. My next bid will show clear slam intent.

3. Most importantly, can I reasonably expect partner to bid anything other than

4♥ if I splinter.

 

Some will say splinter always, so now you may take the opportunity to defend your action. :P

why not include 2♠ and 5♣ in your poll?

[gordontd]

the way I play this is 4 clubs to be followd by 5 clubs, but can see the merit of 3♣ followed by 5.

What's the advantage of these over an immediate 5♣?

[ONEferBRID]

 

1♦-(2♣)-2♥-(p)

?

 

Yes that's it thanks

Codo says:

I like 4 club, it has these messages: I have a good hand outside club and I have short clubs.

 

And, most importantly, the 4C! splinter shows support ( at least 4 cards ) whereas 3C does not guarantee support-- it is just forcing and ostensibly asks for a stop as a first priority. You later can show support, but it will be at the 4-level, which actually wastes space and doesn't guarantee at least 4 cards.

[Fluffy]

the way I play this is 4 clubs to be followd by 5 clubs, but can see the merit of 3♣ followed by 5.

What's the advantage of these over an immediate 5♣?

If partner colaborates over 4♣ you will be searching for 7, if he doesn't you are searching for 6.

[jmcw]

And, most importantly, the 4C! splinter shows support ( at least 4 cards ) whereas 3C does not guarantee support-- it is just forcing and ostensibly asks for a stop as a first priority.  You later can show support, but it will be at the 4-level, which actually wastes space and doesn't guarantee at least 4 cards.

If you Splinter as you suggest. Partner will be bidding 4♥ at his next turn and you have learned nothing about his hand (wasting tons of space). If you commit to the 5 level on these cards a ♠ lead could easily have you down off the top

[aguahombre]

OP's conditions are that 2H is not game forcing. Therefore 4H would be a very nice hand, and 4C pretty much describes this hand. Given that, 4H/4C by responder is not semi automatic, it is a decline of slam. I don't like accepting my own invites any more than I would like partner to sign off in 4H with help in diamonds and spades in addition to a kq-headed heart suit.

 

therefore, 4C and then pass if he signs off (XXX KQXXX XX KQX for instance).

[quiddity]

I think if partner has the SA you'll probably get to the right place either way. The question is whether you can get to the right place when partner has the SQ or when he doesn't. I like the splinter, since it tends to suggest points and length in each of the other suits and in that context partner might be able to see some value in the SQ.

 

Having said that, I can't really imagine stopping in 4H with either approach.

[P_Marlowe]

Splinter.

 

#1 keeping the bidding lower is an illusion, espesially if partner bids

3NT over 3C to show a stopper.

#2 a 4C splinter already showes some slam interest now, why wait?

#3 Sure, e.g. if you play something like Last Train, where 4D does

not show a control, but showes add. strength, and if partner has

no wastage in clubs, but a spade control, he is invite to bid 4S

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

And, most importantly, the 4C! splinter shows support ( at least 4 cards ) whereas 3C does not guarantee support-- it is just forcing and ostensibly asks for a stop as a first priority.  You later can show support, but it will be at the 4-level, which actually wastes space and doesn't guarantee at least 4 cards.

If you Splinter as you suggest. Partner will be bidding 4♥ at his next turn and you have learned nothing about his hand (wasting tons of space). If you commit to the 5 level on these cards a ♠ lead could easily have you down off the top

Are you serious? Partner has learned A LOT about YOUR hand. If she bids 4H it shows there are wasted C hons and slam is probably a bad bet.

[kenrexford]

Splinter.

 

Harder problem after 1♣-2♦-2♥ or 1♠-2♦-2♥.

 

Why?

 

In the actual sequence, partner has an extra option over a 4♣ splinter. He could make a last train bumping 4♦, "not quite enough but thinking about it" call. If the splinter had to be one-under, partner would not have that option.

 

So, after our 4♣ splinter, partner can handle three types of hands -- clear rejection, clear acceptance, and sorta-kinda. Because you want to enter the five-level if he has a sorta-kinda, bid 4♣, and if partner bids 4♦ then bid 5♣ Exclusion. Respect the signoff.

[Jlall]

Too pessimistic Ken. Even Axx KTxxx xx Qxx is a good slam (as long as you play it well), and not even kenrexford himself would last train over this.

 

QJx KQxxx xx Qxx also will not last train though it is tricky to play (and much better with the HT but in all likelihood if you ruff the club lead and play the SK from dummy they will win it).

[Finch]

The problem with the cue bid is that it doesn't tell partner you have heart support.

Whatever partner does over 3C, you can't easily tell him you have four hearts.

 

...3D P ?

 

If you bid 3H, this could be a 3361 or even 2363 game force

If you bid 4C, this sounds like a cue for diamonds

If you bid 3S, this sounds like a lurk looking for 3NT

If you bid 4H, you've definitely got heart support, but you are at the 4-level and partner knows less about your hand than if you had splinterered last round

 

It's worse if partner bids above 3D. If he bids 3H, then 4C by you will agree hearts, but again, you haven't shown the club shortage: you've shown a game force with heart support. An immediate 4C shows a game force with heart support and club shortage.

[aguahombre]

The problem with the cue bid is that it doesn't tell partner you have heart support.

Whatever partner does over 3C, you can't easily tell him you have four hearts.

 

...3D P ?

 

If you bid 3H, this could be a 3361 or even 2363 game force

If you bid 4C, this sounds like a cue for diamonds

If you bid 3S, this sounds like a lurk looking for 3NT

If you bid 4H, you've definitely got heart support, but you are at the 4-level and partner knows less about your hand than if you had splinterered last round

 

It's worse if partner bids above 3D. If he bids 3H, then 4C by you will agree hearts, but again, you haven't shown the club shortage: you've shown a game force with heart support. An immediate 4C shows a game force with heart support and club shortage.

yep....and then let partner's action be the final one

[kenrexford]

Too pessimistic Ken. Even Axx KTxxx xx Qxx is a good slam (as long as you play it well), and not even kenrexford himself would last train over this.

 

QJx KQxxx xx Qxx also will not last train though it is tricky to play (and much better with the HT but in all likelihood if you ruff the club lead and play the SK from dummy they will win it).

Actually, whereas I probably would not with the second, I would with the first. The fifth trump, headed by the Ace or King, a side Ace, and a doubleton diamond? Looks like LTTC for me.

 

Responder is able to visualize hands, too. If Opener has a stiff club, such that we lose that trick, he needs about KQx-AJxx-AKxxx-x to make the slam percentage. Or, Kxx-AQxx-AKJxx-x is good too. If Opener could have less than this for the splinter, Opener could reject my LTTC call. If Opener could accept the move with a tweener hand, we could stop at 5. So, why would I not move below game?

[jmcw]

And, most importantly, the 4C! splinter shows support ( at least 4 cards ) whereas 3C does not guarantee support-- it is just forcing and ostensibly asks for a stop as a first priority.  You later can show support, but it will be at the 4-level, which actually wastes space and doesn't guarantee at least 4 cards.

If you Splinter as you suggest. Partner will be bidding 4♥ at his next turn and you have learned nothing about his hand (wasting tons of space). If you commit to the 5 level on these cards a ♠ lead could easily have you down off the top

Are you serious? Partner has learned A LOT about YOUR hand. If she bids 4H it shows there are wasted C hons and slam is probably a bad bet.

Very! Given your holding it seems unlikely partner will bid anything other than 4♥! in response to your splinter. Now what?.

Bidding 3♣ now gets YOU information at a lower level. For instance if he calls 3NT you will know he has wasted value in ♣. He may even call 3♦, or3♠ don't you think this is helpful?

Splinters by definition largely pass control over to partner. I don't think this is the right think to do on these cards.

[jmcw]

therefore, 4C and then pass if he signs off (XXX KQXXX XX KQX for instance).

Would you also sign off with Qxx Kxxxxx Qx Kx? or Axx Qxxxx Qx Qxx? or Qx Kxxxxx Qx Kxx?

[kenrexford]

therefore, 4C and then pass if he signs off (XXX KQXXX XX KQX for instance).

Would you also sign off with Qxx Kxxxxx Qx Kx? or Axx Qxxxx Qx Qxx? or Qx Kxxxxx Qx Kxx?

Wouldn't you bid 4♦ Last Train with all of those hands?

[Jlall]

Responder is able to visualize hands, too. If Opener has a stiff club, such that we lose that trick, he needs about KQx-AJxx-AKxxx-x to make the slam percentage. Or, Kxx-AQxx-AKJxx-x is good too. If Opener could have less than this for the splinter, Opener could reject my LTTC call. If Opener could accept the move with a tweener hand, we could stop at 5. So, why would I not move below game?

Guess I don't agree with you, partner has already shown 10+ with 5+ hearts, all of openers proposed hands can drive to the 5 level at least (or even just bid keycard).

 

If you are expecting partner to splinter and sign off with KQx AJxx AKxxx x then you are really overloading the last train. I would consider it normal to splinter with just about any hand with 4 trumps and a stiff club and reasonable prime values like Axx Axxx ATxxx x. So if that hand splinters and signs off as well as the first hand, everything is just too overloaded. Responder can't drive to the 5 level that aggressively (could have my hand), and also can't sign off very much (could have your first hand), so he is stuck bidding last train 90 % of the time which will make it ineffective.

 

Perhaps we have differing opinions based on widely different expectations of the splinter. If my partner bid last train I would CERTAINLY move with KQx AJxx AQJxx x (I mean honestly who wouldn't? It's a full 5 points better than my suggested minimum splinter).