1S vs. mini

[luke warm]

kewl hand from ongoing usbc finals.. most would probably open this hand 1S, but i (and at least one more person i know) would open 1nt... here's the hand and bidding using rosenkrantz/truscott 2♦ structure:

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sakq93ht97d85cqjt&w=s2hq85dt7643c8743&e=st8654hk42dkqj9c2&s=sj7haj63da2cak965]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♠    Pass  2♣

 Pass  2♠    Pass  3♥

 Pass  4♣    Pass  4♦

 Pass  4NT   Pass  5♣

 Pass  5♥    Pass  6♣

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

1NT : 2D - game force

2H : 2NT - 2H shows 4+ spades, maybe 4 hearts, 2NT asks

3S : 4C - 3S shows exactly 5323 distribution, 4C asks controls

4D : 4H - 4D shows 2 or 3, 4H starts spiral scan (1st two suits look at A or K)

4S : 4NT - 4S shows zero or all 3 top spades, 4NT continues scanning

5C : 5D - 5C shows zero or all 3 top hearts (south now knows north has all 3 top spades), 5D scanning

5S : 6C - 5S shows one of top 3 clubs (3rd and 4th suits look at A, K, & Q, doubletons scanned only once)... south is afraid to keep scanning because if north shows the diamond Q they'd be at 6S or 6NT (maybe good, maybe not)

 

6C was reached via the bidding shown in this room, but in open room N/S stopped at 4H.. 6C makes on any lead (i think - a diamond might set it) while 6S or 6NT might be in trouble

 

oh, ben... if you want to move this to the 'interesting hands' forum, pls do.. i shoulda put it there to start with :unsure:

[1eyedjack]

Confirm that low diamond beats 6♣. Only because of the 5-1 ♠ break mind, definitely a slam to be in. 6♣ is superior to 6♠/6N only because of the 5-1 ♠ break and possibility of non-♦ lead. Not sure whether the maths make that worth going for the minor. Of academic interest, 6♣ still makes on ♦T lead.

[1eyedjack]

Presumably (derived from other threads) the 1N opener is 10-12? So from responder's viewpoint you have a combined 27-29 HCP and an 8 card fit plus whatever Zar/Binky adjustments you wish to make.

 

I wonder whether all of the asking bids leave you safe. For example, are there any responses to 4♥ or 4N relays that opener might have made that take you beyond the safest 5♣ contract? Presumably then you would sign out in 5♠ or 5N?

 

Had opener not held ♣Q what would the response to the ♣ scan (5♠ bid) have been (would still have had 10 points consistent with 1N opener)? 5N? Would responder pass this? Is this safe?

 

I don't have the answers, not knowing the system. You may have it all under control.

[luke warm]

Presumably (derived from other threads) the 1N opener is 10-12?  So from responder's viewpoint you have a combined 27-29 HCP and an 8 card fit plus whatever Zar/Binky adjustments you wish to make.

 

I wonder whether all of the asking bids leave you safe.  For example, are there any responses to 4♥ or 4N relays that opener might have made that take you beyond the safest 5♣ contract?  Presumably then you would sign out in 5♠ or 5N? 

 

Had opener not held ♣Q what would the response to the ♣ scan (5♠ bid) have been (would still have had 10 points consistent with 1N opener)? 5N? Would responder pass this?  Is this safe?

 

I don't have the answers, not knowing the system.  You may have it all under control.

 

with this particular hand, opener having a 5 card major limited responder's ability to make a min/max ask... this ask has to be made at or below the 3S level, since 3NT by responder ends the auction.. it's a nice ask to have available, when it's possible, cause opener can 'zoom' with max hand to show controls.. it seems possible to tweak the 5M responses to give more room... maybe by going low shortage to high, instead of vice versa.. but i'm not sure of that

 

if 4H starts the scan, 4S shows what i wrote, 4N shows a top (could have 2) spade control but denies a heart (or shows all 3), 5C shows top spades and hearts but denies clubs, 5D shows top spade, heart, club but denies diamonds, etc.. can keep scanning now to look for spade and heart queen or another club honor (no more diamond scans) if you want

 

after 4S by opener and 4N scan, 5C denies hearts, 5D shows hearts and denies clubs, etc.. so responder *can* now stop at 5S if he wants (7 card fit, top 4 honors)

 

yes, 10-13 nt is what i play... i think once south starts scanning, if it goes this direction, he's going to at least 6C.. the biggest reason is, north has 5 spades with A, K, Q, and from south's view this fits nicely... there's even the possibility of playing it at 6S or 6N (even if down, it does look good to south)...

 

had the 5D scan been answered 5H (zero or all 3 top clubs), yes there is a potential problem.. responder can't bid 5S to play any longer, it's another relay.. so he'd have to shoot 5NT, 6C, or even 6S

[1eyedjack]

I shoved this hand through my methods, out of curiosity. Normally I play 12-14 1N, for which the North hand still qualifies, but the methods are modular and should be importable to any range.

 

In my methods South starts with 2♣ response, showing Hearts (4+) or a balanced hand. The weaker the hand, the longer the ♥.

 

North rebids 2♦ to show a maximum 10-12 or 2♥ to show a minimum 12-14, depending on system. Heh, if you are playing 11-13 he takes a view. In either case opener's rebid shows fewer than 4x♥ (with more than 3x♥ he rebids beyond 2♥ whether min or max).

 

Responder then has to make a decision: Does he wish to describe his own hand or require opener to describe? He cannot be sure of changing his mind later.

 

If responder decides to show his own hand he bids (over 2♦/2♥):

1N-2♣-2?-2N-3♣-3♦-3♥-3♠-??

where 2N and 3♦ are puppets, 3♣ and 3♥ are relays. 2N shows a 2-suited GF+ hand between ♥ and ♣, 3♦ denies a shortage except in one case where responder has short ♥, more than 4x♠ and precisely 4x♣. 3♠ confirms precisely 2-4-2-5 shape.

 

If responder decides to conceal his hand in favour of requiring opener to bid his then he starts off with a 2♠ relay over 2♦/2♥:

1N-2♣-2?-2♠-3♦-3♥-3N-??

3♦ shows a 5 card ♠ suit, and 3N confirms 5-3-2-3 shape (3♥ being a relay).

 

My suggestion (not absolutely sure about this) is that opposite a 12-14 1N opener responder is better off treating his hand as a balanced slam try, take charge, conceal his hand and simply relay to the hilt, leaving opener to describe. Opposite a 10-12 opener it may be better for opener to describe his hand as 2-4-2-5 GF+ and let opener hold the reins.

 

All of this means probably very little without all the system notes to hand. However, without going into the 4 level continuations in depth, one observation of my methods contrasted with yours (on this hand), if responder decides to relay, is that opener has shown precise distribution at effectively the same level (3♠ in your methods, 3N in mine), but my methods have perhaps a marginal edge in that, in addition, opener has clarified min v max opener in context.

[luke warm]

right, i'd need to ask min/max with 3S or lower and right, i found out the dist one step sooner.. no biggee there, maybe, and a lot of these sequences fail to find out min/max

 

i like yours just fine, tho my mind is accustomed to thinking in terms of 2D gf relays... i have quite an extensive 2C invitational system in place (a lot of it thanks to a former partner), though i changed it around a little (at free's suggestion, to allow more preemption with the 2M bids)

 

system notes? what are those? *grin*... i have the basics on my website, but nothing else 'cept memory

 

there is a quite nice puppet sequence that could be used that shows even 4441 hands, locating the stiff, but it's sometimes hard to stop with that

[inquiry]

1♠ is ok.. 2♣ game forcing raise.

 

In support of ♣, opener isn't that bad... (ZAR points here)... 12 hcp, 3 cp, 11 dp, 2 fit points for total of 28 Zar points. South has a nice hand... 17 hcp, 7 cp, 12 dp, and 1 fit point for ♠J for 37 zar pts. 37+26 (norht min) = 63 pts. So once north shows club support, south will be thinking slam as a possible contract.

 

A simple, pedestrian auction using natural methods...

 

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S 6C

Pass

 

you could get fancy if you wanted... blackwood or minorwood after 3♠, especially if you had visions of grand slam if you partner was on much better than a minimum. But you get the point.... this is not at all difficult to bid.

 

Ben

[luke warm]

you wouldn't think so, but one great pair reached 4H on it, and the one that reached 6C did so without opener supporting on his rebid.. i agree with you, 3C looks fine with those hands, after 1S

[Flame]

Nice biddings, 6c is a great contract.

In reality its much harder to get to those slams and not getting there when you shouldn't, its much easier to see the hand off the table and check that you can get to this slam with your current system.

Your spiral scan way of bidding it looks good, the point is to know what you need before you ask, see that what you need is possible in partner's hand, and that you can check for it without getting too high, sometimes even when its possible its too unlikely and you wouldnt like to give all the info to the opponents just for a rare case when it can help you. all this should be done before you start relaying.

 

Ben's natural bidding

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S 6C

Pass

 

I dont know about the 3C, the book bid (beginers bid) is imo 2nt, but 2sp seems much better here. and the continuation is also far from ovious.

wouldnt north bid the same with

AQxxx

xxx

Kx

QJx

 

or with

AKxxx

xxx

Kx

QJX

 

or

AQxxx

Qxx

Qxx

Qxx

 

Im not saying you wouldnt bid the slam , its possible to bid it in any system,just that its much easier off the table and therefore you will get your prize only when you do it around the table.

[the hog]

AQxxx

Qxx

Qxx

Qxx

 

Hmm.... "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.

[inquiry]

Nice biddings, 6c is a great contract.

In reality its much harder to get to those slams and not getting there when you shouldn't, its much easier to see the hand off the table and check that you can get to this slam with your current system.

Your spiral scan way of bidding it looks good, the point is to know what you need before you ask, see that what you need is possible in partner's hand, and that you can check for it without getting too high, sometimes even when its possible its too unlikely and you wouldnt like to give all the info to the opponents just for a rare case when it can help you. all this should be done before you start relaying.

 

Ben's natural bidding

1S 2C

3C 3D

3S 6C

Pass

 

I dont know about the 3C, the book bid (beginers bid) is imo 2nt, but 2sp seems much better here. and the continuation is also far from ovious.

wouldnt north bid the same with

AQxxx

xxx

Kx

QJx

 

or with

AKxxx

xxx

Kx

QJX

 

or

AQxxx

Qxx

Qxx

Qxx

 

Im not saying you wouldnt bid the slam , its possible to bid it in any system,just that its much easier off the table and therefore you will get your prize only when you do it around the table.

I meant the example bidding as an illustration of ZAR evaluation of slam POTENTIAL of the hand. I find it hard to believe that the "book" rebid over 2♣ with the north hand is 2NT, given it lacks a stopper in either red suit, and clearly if the hand is to be played in notrump, it has to be played from the south side.. I mean norht has nothing he wants lead up to... and doesn't have anything he minds being lead through. If I had to guess, I would say the book rebid over 2♣ is either 2♠ or 3♣.

 

For me, 3♣ shows "extra" values or a decent fit. This hand is a tad light on the extra values, but it does have a good fit with three honors, and no other rebid looks attractive, so in fact, playing standard 2/1 I would indeed raise.

 

On the hands where you give north a doubleton diamond king, and five spades to the AQ or AK, I would still rebid 3♣, altlhough on the one with AQ♠ and K♦ I might rebid 2NT instead. On the hand with all the queens, if I opened at all, I would surely rebid a very discouraging 2♠, not 3♣.

 

This hand is actually very difficult for my methods, as I use 2♣ as a multi-meaning thing, either "drury" or "balanced game invite +", or true 2/1 with ♣. It is not entirely clear my preferred bidding method reach this slam.

 

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

If you open this with a 12-14 weak NT you might get to slam, but I highly doubt that. And if you do it is just to make up the 60 imps that you already lost on other same type hands that you went for slam and kept going down.

 

Mike :D

[luke warm]

If you open this with a 12-14 weak NT you might get to slam, but I highly doubt that. And if you do it is just to make up the 60 imps that you already lost on other same type hands that you went for slam and kept going down.

 

Mike :D

but that's the point, mike... if slam isn't right (or *maybe* right), it won't be bid... as for the 60 other imps, i guess i'd need to see an example or two

[EarlPurple]

6♣ will be beaten on a low diamond lead. If declarer plays off 4 rounds of trumps, East must throw all his diamonds. If declarer plays a 5th trump East can throw a heart, and if declarer now lays down the ace of hearts, East must pitch his king.

 

If East has thrown any hearts on the 4 rounds of trumps, declarer can now simply play off 3 spades (or 4) throwing the losing diamond and lead a heart honour from dummy. Whether East covers or not declarer will lose just one heart trick.