Maj suit game try

[francosca]

I normally use "help suit game tries" (HSGT) after a typical single raise 1M-2M although it could be after a Bergen raise of 3♣. Some partners are more comfortable w/ short or long suit game tries.

Some partners find the HSGT confusing as they don't know what my holding in that suit is, e.g. xxx ? KJx? Qxxx? and what THEY should consider to be their required holding in the suit to raise to game or not.

Any advice ?

thx

[aguahombre]

You are right. What the alleged "help suit" should look like should be a matter of discussion before playing. And no advice on them from here. We use a different game try structure where the cheapest suit is a random game try, and bypassing a suit to make the game try suggests shortness in the bypassed suit.

[kenrexford]

I think you are missing a fourth option (not including stacked game tries with relays and stuff), what might be called a "stuff" game try.

 

To me, a "stuff" game try shows a fragment or better in the suit bid (not a "long suit) and has as its focus whether partner has "stuff" in that suit, typically inviting favorable consideration of lower honors (K and Q, possibly Jack), suggesting probably that Aces and spaces are desired elsewhere (or slow honors in a higher suit). The difference is that shortness might not be ideal here. It might be OK, but not ideal.

 

Thus, with some 5431 shapes, for example, you might bid the 3-card suit as a game try if that suit is cheaper to bid than the 4-card suit (giving partner room to try back by showing "stuff" in that suit anyway) and if that suit looks like a suit where slow honors would be nice (e.g., AJx).

[gnasher]

You're right that it's silly to make the same bid with both xxx and KJxx. Play the game try as showing real length in the suit, and bid 2NT when you have a game try without a side suit.

[helene_t]

I think long suit game tries are cool when we might still want to play in a suit other than the one agreed, for example 1♠-2♠-3♥-4♥.

 

Otherwise short suit game tries are easiest to play.

 

If the one who introduced the suit first bids the first step asking for a trial, for example

1♥-2♥

2♠*-2NT**

*asking for a trial

**shortness (or whatever you play) in spades

you get the advantage that declarer's hand is concealed.

[kenrexford]

Actually, that gets me thinking. One could easily stack "HSGT" and "Stuff Try."

 

1♠-2♠-?

 

Suit = Stuff try

2NT = shortness ask (maybe 3♠ short clubs and 3♣ no shortness to add space?)

[RichMor]

Actually, that gets me thinking.  One could easily stack "HSGT" and "Stuff Try."

 

1♠-2♠-?

 

Suit = Stuff try

2NT = shortness ask (maybe 3♠ short clubs and 3♣ no shortness to add space?)

Ken,

 

I think 2-way game tries have been around for some time.

 

As you suggest after 1♠ - 2♠

opener can rebid a new suit as a help-suit or stuff game try or rebid 2NT as a puppet to a short suit game try.

 

Responder relays with 3♣ and opener rebids

3♦ = short Diamonds

3♥ = short Hearts

3♠ = short Clubs (the relay suit)

 

After 1♥ - 2♥

opener rebids 2♠ as the start of the puppet SSGT and opener rebids 2NT as a suit game try showing Spades.

 

RichM

[wclass___]

e.g. xxx ? KJx? Qxxx?

Yes. No. Yes.

[wclass___]

deleted

[kenrexford]

Actually, that gets me thinking.  One could easily stack "HSGT" and "Stuff Try."

 

1♠-2♠-?

 

Suit = Stuff try

2NT = shortness ask (maybe 3♠ short clubs and 3♣ no shortness to add space?)

Ken,

 

I think 2-way game tries have been around for some time.

 

As you suggest after 1♠ - 2♠

opener can rebid a new suit as a help-suit or stuff game try or rebid 2NT as a puppet to a short suit game try.

 

Responder relays with 3♣ and opener rebids

3♦ = short Diamonds

3♥ = short Hearts

3♠ = short Clubs (the relay suit)

 

After 1♥ - 2♥

opener rebids 2♠ as the start of the puppet SSGT and opener rebids 2NT as a suit game try showing Spades.

 

RichM

Well, sure. But, I was talking about a different structure, including two-way tries of a shortness ASK and a "stuff" ASK.

[nigel_k]

My view in these situations is that you don't want to tell them about declarer's hand when you are bidding to a thin game.

 

You could play the first step (2♠ over 2♥ or 2NT over 2♠) is any game try and responder can then show where his values lie, with emphasis on secondary values.

 

In any case, to avoid confusion it is clearer to define your game tries in terms of what will fit well in the responding hand, e.g.

 

Instead of 'help suit try', use 'holding where shortage or secondary honours in responder will be good and three small cards will be bad'.

 

Instead of 'short suit try', use 'holding where secondary honours in responder will be bad and three small cards will be good'.

[Echognome]

<Rant>

 

This thread and many others are one of the reasons I hate the term "help suit game try". It seems that everyone has a different opinion as to what they mean. I don't know if they are only made with xxx or with AQxx and it's annoying that when you ask some opponents they look indignant that it's "obvious" what they mean. Of course, I try to persist and ask them to clarify.

 

</Rant>

[Fluffy]

I don't think help suit is so different from long suit.

 

I normally play long suitm but if my side suit is KQJx I won't make a try there, because I expect partner to never bid game with "xxx". So then I will bid my KJx suit, or Qxx.

 

All you've got to do is rank all the holdings, with "xxx" being the worse, and "KQ" the best.

 

something like

 

xxx

Jxx

xx

Qxx

xxxx

Jxxx

Qxxx

Kxx

Qx

...

 

and so on.

[francosca]

Thank you all for suggestions and comments.

A combination of asking for shortness or "stuff" seems to be the best approach to me.

[peachy]

I don't think help suit is so different from long suit.

I am a little surprised at the confusion. Unless a two-way try or other artificial try is on card, a new suit is either long suit try (natural), short suit try, or a help suit try. HSGT asks partner if he can stop three quick losers in the "help suit". If yes, bid game. If not, with a maximum make counteroffer (suit with values or chunky 3-card fragment) in another suit if below 3 of the trump suit. If neither is possible, sign off in three, no matter how maximum responder is otherwise. Opener is in charge.