awm Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 What's the standard meaning for double here? What do you play in your regular partnerships? Assume strong notrumps (although not obvious if it matters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 obviously not the same as 1N (2S) P (P) X, where the double is wtp takeout. In the OP's case you are behind the Spade hand and I can think of a couple reasons it should be penalty. 1. It is consistent with the fallback that double behind is penalty, and under is takeout.2. Your center opponent has been given another chance to come into the auction, and you might have a hand that really wants to discourage that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cRi cRi Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Well, my only advice, don't dbl if you have discuss that with your partner :D.% I personally play it as penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout, with something like xx AQxx KQxx KQx. You should want to bid with this hand, and you will get many more penalties by playing takeout doubles from both sides than by playing penalty doubles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 The fact that I am behind or before the overcaller never plays a role when deciding that a double is penalty or not. It is just a big mess to have different aproaches by position. I had a similar sequence where I though penalty made more sense a couple of days ago: (1♦)-1ST-(2♥)-X But having a diffeent meaning for this one and say (1♣)-1ST-(2♦)-X Would end to many missunderstandings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd6789 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout, with something like xx AQxx KQxx KQx. yes, and p can bid 2NT with 4-4 in the minors to find your fit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlall Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard.I presume there is substantial tolerance for conversion by partner so it is really a DSIP X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Shouldn't 1N-(P)-P-(2♠), DBL and 1N-(P)-P-(2♠), P-(P)-DBL have the same meaning? I think both takeout would be most common. With regular partners, I play that these doubles show exactly two spades. We might not catch them when our spades are 3-3 (or worse), but then we ought to be just as well off defending 2♠ as declaring 1N, probably better off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard.I presume there is substantial tolerance for conversion by partner so it is really a DSIP X Yeah, I usually have 2 spades and 14+hcp for this double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matmat Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard.I presume there is substantial tolerance for conversion by partner so it is really a DSIP X Yeah, I usually have 2 spades and 14+hcp for this double. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard. I don't know what expert standard is for this double. I know that, without any discussion, Dave Treadwell plays it as a penalty double, and I have not seen any evidence of any local experts playing the double as anything but a penalty double. I know that I had an agreement with one of my partners that a double by a 1NT opener always showed shortness in the bid suit. Suffice it to say that one should discuss the meaning of the double with one's partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Do they even make penalty doubles anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coelacanth Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 According to BWS, this is a penalty double(i) one notrump — (overcall) — pass — (pass) — double is for takeout, but one notrump — (pass) — pass — (overcall) — double is for penalty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double ! Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Takeout is how I play it. I assume this to be expert standard. I agree, although I don't play with enough "experts" to know what is "expert standard". I have several books from way back when (i.e.: before some of you might have been born) that assert that the dbl behind the suit bidder is penalty. I have rarely, if ever, been fortunate enough to have such a hand. Treating the dbl as takeout seems much more sensible, sort of tantamount to opening 1suit-p-p-2S-X: correct shape and enough to be able to play at the 3-level. Partnership should establish what a 2NT response to the X will be: (natural, minors, Leb, etc?) IMO, the 1NT opener doesn't even need a max 1NT opener to X 2S: just a hand that wants to compete. (Suggestion: check the vulnerability and your ODR. It might be easier to get +200 by passing than to get +110/130/140. Remember also: responder did not take any action over your 1NT opener including transferring to Hts.) DHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I think one of my bidding rules is: If partner could have a yarborough, then double of the opponents partial in a suit is not penalty. This goes along with my rule that: If partner could have a yarborough, then pass is not forcing. However, I suspect that a lot of players (especially older players) do not agree with these rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 According to BWS, this is a penalty double(i) one notrump — (overcall) — pass — (pass) — double is for takeout, but one notrump — (pass) — pass — (overcall) — double is for penalty I am happy to bet that this will be different the next time they poll this question for BWS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdeegan Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 :) take outsmall doubleton ♠, max HCP, 2-4-4-3 distribution and an unbalanced mind. I guess this means that a 2NT bid would show: a small doubleton spade, max HCP, 2-3-4-4 distribution and an unbalanced mind. Do you think BWS will buy that?Then again, what do I do with a small doubleton ♠, max HCP and 2-4-5-2 distribution? Bid 2NT and correct 3♣ to 3♦? Will BWS buy this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I don't claim to know what most other people do, but takeout is better. The downside is the small number of times you have good spades, partner doesn't have a takeout double and they don't find a better spot. If you normally play partner's double as takeout, the upside is you can now get them when partner makes a penalty pass of your takeout double. If you normally play partner's double as penalties, the upside of switching to takeout is you have 2NT as a scramble which you wouldn't if he had to bid 2NT for takeout. And he can bid 2NT to show a different hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 If partner could have a yarborough, then pass is not forcing. I generally agree with your guidelines, but there is at least one excepction, after opening 2♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 If partner could have a yarborough, then pass is not forcing. I generally agree with your guidelines, but there is at least one excepction, after opening 2♣. A lot of people invert the meaning of pass and double in some auctions after interference with a strong club, which is fine. But take some auctions like: 2♣(1) - Pass - 2♥(2) - 3♠Pass - Pass (1) Strong(2) Double negative; denies a king or two queens Is pass forcing here? It seems likely that responder has absolutely nothing, and that opener has a big balanced hand with 22-24 hcp. There is no particular reason that 3♠ cannot be making, and it is actually quite unlikely that our side can make a game... 2♣(1) - 2♠(2) - X(3) - 3♣(4)Pass - Pass (1) Strong(2) Spades and a minor(3) Negative; 0-2 hcp(4) Pass or correct Again, is pass forcing? I don't really think it should be. This is different from a pass being forcing on the strong hand at a low level, where it's hard to imagine selling to a two-level contract with 22 hcp in any case. Some other common examples where people disagree with my guidelines: 1♠ - Pass - 1NT - Pass2♠ - X Penalty? My rules say no, but old-fashioned standard is penalty and a lot of good players disagree with me here. 1NT(1) - X(2) - 2♦(3) - PassPass - X (1) 12-14(2) Cards; 15+ hcp(3) To play Was pass forcing? Is X penalty? I would say no to both because advancer could have a yarborough, but many good players disagree. Anyway, the point is just that a lot of people think these rules sound good on the surface, but once we get to individual auctions they disagree with me pretty frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 my balanced 2♣ openings are stronger, 22-23 goes through 2♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantumcat Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 Life is easy if you play all takeout doubles except when we have found a fit or are in a game force auction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bid_em_up Posted September 4, 2009 Report Share Posted September 4, 2009 If you normally play partner's double as takeout, the upside is you can now get them when partner makes a penalty pass of your takeout double. Please show me an example hand given the conditions: 1) partner is under the major suit bidder2) partner likely will not hold 5+ cards in that major (no transfer initially) and, 3) partner is unlikely to have 8+ hcp and four good cards in the major (no stayman) that would be suitable for converting the NT openers "takeout" double to penalty. Given these conditions, I cannot consider this to be an "upside" of playing the NT bidders double as takeout as partner will "never"* hold a hand that is actually capable of converting this double to penalties. * Never say Never, but the chances of this actually occuring will be much more infrequent than chances of the NT opener holding a penalty oriented hand, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted September 5, 2009 Report Share Posted September 5, 2009 If you normally play partner's double as takeout, the upside is you can now get them when partner makes a penalty pass of your takeout double. Please show me an example hand given the conditions: 1) partner is under the major suit bidder2) partner likely will not hold 5+ cards in that major (no transfer initially) and, 3) partner is unlikely to have 8+ hcp and four good cards in the major (no stayman) Obviously you'd need four good trumps, probably a sequence eg QJTx plus an ace or king. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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