gable Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Hi all, I would like to play a relay bridge System. I red notes and a book about three bridge systems (Ultimate Club, Symmetric Relay and TOSR) but I am not able to choose the best one. :blink: Have U got any suggestion/comment ? Thx in advance Regards G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 This is somewhat complicated because Symmetric Relay has a couple different meanings. 1. Symmetric Relay - the relay structure that Roy Kerr developed lo these many years ago 2. Symmetric Relay - a bidding system that used said relay structure As I recall, TOSR uses something fairly close to the Symmetric Relay bidding structure. (I could be very wrong with this) If you want to learn relay methods, I'd advise grafting a SIMPLE symmetric relay based structure onto a Precision type strong club opening. My MOSCITO notes have a simple structure thats quite easy to learn. (From my perspective, the memory load required to effectively employ Ultimate Club is way to high to consider this as a starting point) The numeric relay structure that the ICelander's use is another reasonable starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shevek Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Viking Club is okay but the relays are a bit complicated, tough to learn. Same issue with Ultimate Club, which peaked 30 years ago. Antipodean symmetric relay is a good basis, though not a system. Kiwi Club, Moscito, Scamp (self plug) & TOSR all sprung from Roy Kerr's structure.If you go with Moscito, there are many sub versions. The current Marston version is light years aways from the originals. Less natural, more complicated and - IMHO - not much of a step forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 If you want to play a reasonably easy relay system, use the modern transfer-oriented symmetric relay responses to 1♣ strong, and play natural openings besides 1♣ (rather than transfer openings). 5 card majors and 2/1 for the rest of the system is fine. You'll probably have some luck finding at least a few other people who also know this and might play it with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I would recommend picking a system with some variant of symmetric relays (classic symmetric, TOSR, Moscito 2001). Viking, Ultimate and other home grown brews may claim to have a leg up the "relay efficiency factor", but symmetric towers above the rest where it really counts : mnenomic ease. BTW, it probably makes sense to use the relays over a 1♣ opening only. If the rest of your system employs 5CM openings, you can potentially use a forcing NT to start your relays. However, IMO, it's better to use a GF 2♣ response for that purpose (the relays won't exactly be symmetric, but pretty close)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Google Sharko and symmetric relay. Very funny write-up. And a good system albeit you might want to devise a better non relay structure than everything NF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 I played symmetric relay (the relay structure not the opening bid structure) for a number of years including internationally and highly recommend it. I don't know the ultimate club that well, but it is hard to even conceive of a relay structure being better than symmetric. Symmetric relay works with strong club and either transfer openings and a minor oriented 1♠, or with Precision style 5 card majors and a catchall 1♦. You can play it just over the 1♣ opening but you'll probably want to use it everywhere. The relays over 1♣ can benefit from some adjustments to maximize the chance of relayer, not responder, becoming declarer. Let us know how you get on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Before you decide to play a relay system, I think you should make a decision as to whether you ptrefer 4 or 5 card Ms.If 4, look at Ultimate or moscitoIf 5, look at the original symmetric relay. Ice Relay is another possibility, as is Viking Club.My choice in the latter group would be symmetric played with a few tweaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Google Sharko and symmetric relay. Very funny write-up. And a good system albeit you might want to devise a better non relay structure than everything NF This is a good system :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant590 Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 When I learnt SR I learnt from a local player's homegrown notes. They were sufficient but required many Q&A sessions between us. If I were to learn from scratch again I would start with Alan Truscott's Vanilla Symmetric Relay (see http://bridgewithdan.com/systems/), or "Symmetric" by Andrei Sharko (see http://www.geocities.com/gerben47/bridge/). I'm not saying these systems are better than any other, but in terms of explaining the principles I've not seen anything better. (the latter is of publishable quality imho) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 No please! Truscott's notes are very badly written. The full Symmetric system actually has been published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant590 Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 The full Symmetric system actually has been published. Oooh, by whom? Do you have an ISBN? Is it different from the version on Gerben's page? I'm buying it tomorrow if it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 It was the original version by Roy Kerr. I have a copy, but it is in Australia. I doubt you can get it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 The full Symmetric system actually has been published. Oooh, by whom? Do you have an ISBN? Is it different from the version on Gerben's page? I'm buying it tomorrow if it is. This is somewhat tangential, but the Symmetric system was also documented in the excellent B2SYM (Bridge2Symmetric) SW written by Kerr and co. IMO, it's a terrific tool for practicing symmetric relays and you can easily roll your own versions too!!! Unfortunately, it's no longer available for sale, but ping me if you are interested in the software... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gable Posted August 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 Thx all for your kind answers. So my conclusions are: 1) I decide to play a 5th major bridge system. 2) Symmetric Relay (or TOSR) seems to be easier to be learnt and played than Ultimate Club (I found an italian book wrote by Giorgio Rivara (Octopus) where the ultimate club system has been revisited to be played in 5th major). So I think I will choose Symmetric Relay for starting. The next question is: How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?. Anyone of you found any problems ? Thx in advance Kind Regards G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?. In relay auctions the normal standard is to play: PASS = 1st step or relay DBL or RDBL = 2nd step or penalties There are some variations if the relay has not started: 1♣ (1♠) ... PASS = weakDBL = 1st step so whatever a normal 1♥ bid would have shown1NT = 2nd step so whatever a normal 1♠ bid would have shown without the interference in other words the relays are up one step. Sometimes you can claw these steps back: 1♣ (1♠) DBL (2♣) ... PASS = relayDBL = penalties so that 1♣ (1♠) DBL (2♣) ...PASS (PASS) ... DBL = 1st step i.e. equivalent to the uncontested auction 1♣ 1♥; 1♠ 1NT2♦ = 2nd step i.e. equivalent to the uncontested auction 1♣ 1♥; 1♠ 2♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 You need a lot of practise in competition so that the responses become automatic. Practice bidding for at least 4-5 hours a week in the early stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 How does symmetric Relay work in competion ?. Anyone of you found any problems ? As Wayne said, in competition you use the same structure but may be up to three steps higher. When the interference forces you up four steps or more, the relays are off. If they interfere directly over 1♣, I would play dbl is any 0-4, pass is any 5-8 and other bids are positive. So 1♣-(1♠)-1NT would be the first relay step. This means that a direct overcall of 2♣ or higher breaks the relay but a 1NT overcall does not. After the 5-8 pass, dbl or other first step by opener is 19+ and initiates relay. After the 0-4 dbl there is no relay. Other than that, just go on a step basis, e.g. 1♣-(P)-1♠-(2♥), pass by opener is relay then dbl by responder replaces the 2♣ bid (after a 1NT relay in an uninterrupted sequence) and 2♠ by responder replaces the 2♦ bid. So you are two steps higher. There is no difficulty with this in theory but you should expect a couple of accidents before you get used to it. I would also change the positive responses to 1♣ as follows: 1♥ any hand with spades except balanced1♠ either balanced (4333 or 4432) or heart/diamond two suiter1NT either single suited clubs or heart/club two suiter2♣ either single suited diamonds, or minor 3 suiter2♦ single suited hearts2♥ and higher shows both minors After 1♠ bid 2♣ next with the heart/diamond two suiter and 2♦+ with balanced. After 1NT bid 2♦ next with single suited clubs and 2♥ + with the heart/club two suiter. This gets you back to the normal symmetric continuations while making the relayer declarer as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akhare Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 You need a lot of practise in competition so that the responses become automatic. Practice bidding for at least 4-5 hours a week in the early stages. Good to see the "s" / "c" verb / noun spelling forms are still in vogue in some parts of the world :D. Humour aside, what Ron said and another pitch for the excellent B2SYM for that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 nigel those are pretty cool modifications, I like them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 After 1NT bid 2♦ next with single suited clubs and 2♥ + with the heart/club two suiter. Why not bid 2♦ with the heart/club two-suiter (non-reversers), 2♥ with the reverser, and 2♠+ with single suited clubs? This is more symmetric, plus when responder has 5+♥ and 4♣ it's guaranteed to rightside hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 After 1NT bid 2♦ next with single suited clubs and 2♥ + with the heart/club two suiter. Why not bid 2♦ with the heart/club two-suiter (non-reversers), 2♥ with the reverser, and 2♠+ with single suited clubs? This is more symmetric, plus when responder has 5+♥ and 4♣ it's guaranteed to rightside hearts. You're right. I don't know that your way is more symmetric but it definitely right sides the contract more often with the 5+♥ option and breaks even on the other ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 After 1NT bid 2♦ next with single suited clubs and 2♥ + with the heart/club two suiter. Why not bid 2♦ with the heart/club two-suiter (non-reversers), 2♥ with the reverser, and 2♠+ with single suited clubs? This is more symmetric, plus when responder has 5+♥ and 4♣ it's guaranteed to rightside hearts. You're right. I don't know that your way is more symmetric but it definitely right sides the contract more often with the 5+♥ option and breaks even on the other ones. It's more symmetric. The rule for one suiters is "show your suit, then bid 2s+". 1c-1n-2c-2s resembles 1c-1h-1s-2s, 1c-2c-2d-2s, and 1c-2d-2h-2s. These should all show single suiters. 1c-1n-2c-2d is like 1c-1h-1s-2d, which shows a two suiter not a reverser. Thus this sequence should also show a two suiter not a reverser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 The downside of this is that while right-siding can potentially matter in any contract, it matters most frequently in notrump contracts, where you need to protect the control of a particular suit from the lead. For this reason, I think it's better if 1♣-P-1NT shows a long major suit (or both majors, or some combination including a long major). This is when you're least likely to actually want to play the hand in notrump. If 1NT shows clubs (transfer response), then you'll get a lot of hands where responder is declaring 3NT with a long club suit and the lead comes through opener's only stopper somewhere. Admittedly the modified responses do a good job of right-siding heart contracts, but I see this as a lot less critical than the 3NTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrecisionL Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Yes, Adam, our conclusion too. So we (Dwayne & I) now play 1♣ - 1NT = (a) 5-4 or better in the majors, or (b) 44 in the majors with a minor suit singleton and 11+ hcp. Our experience is that this maximizes not playing in NT and is easy to untangle (even if 4th hand interferes). Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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