2[he] or 2[sp]?

[twcho]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxhqt9xxdxxckqxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

You play 2/1 and partner opened with 1♠. You responded 1NT and partner rebid 2♦. What should you bid now? 2♥ or 2♠? What is the rationale behind?

[Cascade]

Was 1NT forcing?

 

Generally 2♠ is a known 5=2 fit at worst.

 

2♥ might be a 5=0 fit but could also be a 5=3 fit. I hope it is not a 5=4 fit.

 

Nevertheless generally I would go for the relative safety of 5=2.

[mich-b]

2♠, because this assures you of playing in (at least) 7 card fit.

 

If you bid 2♥ , pd will pass with minimum 5143, and you will find yourself in the undesirable situation of declaring a suit contract, with the defense having more trumps.

[wclass___]

I think that 2♥ at MPs is pretty obvious.

 

If partner has exactly 2♥s, I would highly prefer to play 2♥.

 

*texture of ♥ suit and lack of honour support for partner.

QT9 is not the greatest combination ever, but intermediate cards is the key. e.g. if partner has ♥Jx, we have 2 losers in both 2♥ and 2♠, but in 2♥ heart suit produce 3 extra tricks. In ♠ play intermediate cards in ♥ would be less useful.

*I doun't mind ♣ lead (and other leads too). I have showed considerably less in the bidding than my partner, so it will be tougher to defend.

 

If partner has 3♥ we rock.

 

If partner has one ♥. Oh wel... but maybe he has another bid available..

[Fluffy]

2♥ is ridicoulous IMO. to force a suit opposite a 2 suiter you need a good 6 card suit.

[the hog]

2S. Why is this set as a problem? This is the most obvious 2S bid of all time! Seriously, 2H i a beginner's bid on that suit.

[joker_gib]

Totally agree with Gonzalo, Ron and others.

 

Obvious 2♠

[gnasher]

Why is 2♥ ridiculous? If we're about to play at the two-level, it gains when partner is 5332 or 5341, probably gains when he's 5242 or 5251, and loses when he's 5143 or 5152. That sounds to me like decent odds.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sxxhqt9xxdxxckqxx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

You play 2/1 and partner opened with 1♠. You responded 1NT and partner rebid 2♦. What should you bid now? 2♥ or 2♠? What is the rationale behind?

you bid 2♠ since systemically 2♥ is a nonforcing 6 card ♥ suit

[Fluffy]

2♥ is a gamble at MPs, maybe it is not so ridicoulous there but it is not a good bet, because 2♥ doesn't end the bidding and I expect partner to raise on doubleton honnor and a good hand.

 

Andy, on your reasonings: 5332 many people like to bid 2♣, and you excluded 5044, 6151 and 6142 (with bad spades).

 

In general you only gain when partner is 5341 with a 5 card heart, but the clubs and the hearts make this particular case much more appealing I concede. Even opposite singleton honnor you might be at least as good as playing in spades. But the problem is partner raising.

[gnasher]

I expect partner to raise on doubleton honnor and a good hand.

That's partly because your partner expects a six-card suit for 2♥. If partner knows that we'd bid 2♥ with this, he will be less inclined to raise with a doubleton.

 

5332 many people like to bid 2♣,

In real life we'd know what partner does with 5332. That might well be the deciding factor between 2♥ and 2♠.

and you excluded 5044, 6151 and 6142 (with bad spades).

I considered only the most likely shapes. A specific 5440 is 1/5 as likely as a specific 5431. Most hands with 6-1 in the majors will bid 2♠ at some point in the auction, especially if partner knows that we might bid 2♥ with this.

 

In general you only gain when partner is 5341 with a 5 card heart,

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. With a random 5242 opposite a random 2524, it's obviously better to play from the weaker hand. On this occasion, we know that our hearts are more suited to a 5-2 fit than average.

[PeterGill]

Last year, when I was a worse player than I am now, I used to bid 2S routinely on this hand, citing the reasons given in this thread.

 

Then last year I was commentating on BBO with Jack Zhao, current World Pairs Champion, Pacific Asia Teams Champion the last four years, Vanderbilt winner 2 years ago, perhaps also Cavendish Teams winner this year - not bad credentials.

 

A hand very similar to this one came up, 2-5 in majors. Jack wrote that if it is vul at IMPs, 2H is clearcut, as partner might have Axxxx, AJx, Axx, J10 or the like, in which case 4H is playable and is biddable only if you rebid 2H, not 2S, which will be passed out. The vul game factor at IMPS makes 2H a standout, he claimed.

 

In this case - matchpoints - it is not as clear but I think Jack still would maintain that 2H is right for similar reasons. And that partner should understand that although a new suit after 1NT generally promises six cards, 2H is the exception, being often bid on a decent five card suit. Andy and others are right - that nice suit texture of Q109 makes 2H surely best - opposite Axxxx, J, Axxxx, A10 and many other hands, 2H is likely to make more tricks than 2S. And as Jack wrote, as long as it is a partneship agreement that 2H promises only five cards (as it should be), partner will sometimes remove 2H when appropriate.

 

So - beginners and world champions and me tend to bid 2H. Most of the rest 2S. Put me in the 2H camp since 2008.

 

Peter Gill.

[Phil]

I think the 'standards' (Hopefully STu won't jump on me about 'style') for responder's rebids after a 1N response are:

 

--show a new minor: 6 cards

--show hearts: 5 cards

 

So I have no problem with 2♥. We might hit a 5-3, probably will play a 5-2, and in some of the cases where pard has a singleton, pard will bid 2♠ on 6, or 3♦ on 5. The likely death holding is 5=1=4=3.

[Fluffy]

5332 many people like to bid 2♣,

In real life we'd know what partner does with 5332. That might well be the deciding factor between 2♥ and 2♠.

Not sure what standard is, but we do this systemically so that partner knows 4 diamonds are almost sure, and specially because then partner can bid 2♦ to show 2 spades and 5 hearts over 2 clubs.

 

In general you only gain when partner is 5341 with a 5 card heart,

I don't see how you reached that conclusion. With a random 5242 opposite a random 2524, it's obviously better to play from the weaker hand. On this occasion, we know that our hearts are more suited to a 5-2 fit than average.

 

Obviously, but only very slightly, Most of the times it won't matter, or the matter will be just random on opponent's shape.

 

 

and you excluded 5044, 6151 and 6142 (with bad spades).

I considered only the most likely shapes. A specific 5440 is 1/5 as likely as a specific 5431. Most hands with 6-1 in the majors will bid 2♠ at some point in the auction, especially if partner knows that we might bid 2♥ with this.

 

This is kind of cyclic, if partner rectifies because you can have 5 you will hate whe he rectifies when you have good 6 ones or 7. It goes into statistics, obviously 5 cards are more likelly than 6 or more, but the lose might be higher as well.

 

 

------

 

Give you a point not raised, doing this with 5 cards often is an advantage if you have 1525 or alike.

[Free]

2♠, this is so obvious that it's even standard...

[aguahombre]

2♠, this is so obvious that it's even standard...

Seems a bit dismissive of Phil's thoughts. At least Gnasher addressed them, and that was helpful to the discussion. I disagree with Phil on this one, but would not presume to dismiss the 2H bid as ridiculous --nor say that 2S is 100% obvious. The OP wanted input, so it was not obvious to him. I think the man who occasionally finds an acorn--though a bit caustic in his verbage--is probably right that more people with experience in having this auction have gravitated to 2S because of the sometimes ugly result of a 2H call.

[mike777]

"A hand very similar to this one came up, 2-5 in majors. Jack wrote that if it is vul at IMPs, 2H is clearcut, as partner might have Axxxx, AJx, Axx, J10 or the like, in which case 4H is playable and is biddable only if you rebid 2H, not 2S, which will be passed out. The vul game factor at IMPS makes 2H a standout, he claimed."

 

 

 

 

With this example hand, many of us would rebid 2c.....after 1s=1nt=2c, now partner can rebid BART 2d. Another case could be made for opening the example hand 1nt.

 

With OP I just rebid 2s.

[pooltuna]

Last year, when I was a worse player than I am now, I used to bid 2S routinely on this hand, citing the reasons given in this thread.

 

Then last year I was commentating on BBO with Jack Zhao, current World Pairs Champion, Pacific Asia Teams Champion the last four years, Vanderbilt winner 2 years ago, perhaps also Cavendish Teams winner this year - not bad credentials.

 

A hand very similar to this one came up, 2-5 in majors. Jack wrote that if it is vul at IMPs, 2H is clearcut, as partner might have Axxxx, AJx, Axx, J10 or the like, in which case 4H is playable and is biddable only if you rebid 2H, not 2S, which will be passed out. The vul game factor at IMPS makes 2H a standout, he claimed.

 

In this case - matchpoints - it is not as clear but I think Jack still would maintain that 2H is right for similar reasons. And that partner should understand that although a new suit after 1NT generally promises six cards, 2H is the exception, being often bid on a decent five card suit. Andy and others are right - that nice suit texture of Q109 makes 2H surely best - opposite Axxxx, J, Axxxx, A10 and many other hands, 2H is likely to make more tricks than 2S. And as Jack wrote, as long as it is a partneship agreement that 2H promises only five cards (as it should be), partner will sometimes remove 2H when appropriate.

 

So - beginners and world champions and me tend to bid 2H. Most of the rest 2S. Put me in the 2H camp since 2008.

 

Peter Gill.

Interesting points but i would prefer to hold a hand equivalent to a limit raise to bid 2♥ with this hand and this hand does not quite measure up for me

[rbforster]

For all the times you find a lucky heart game, isn't it more likely that partner has a good hand with 6 spades (6-4 or even 6-3 in his suits) and will raise your 2♠ preference? There are lots of awkward strong hands playing standard and, as responder, showing your tolerance for opener's major suit seems like a very reasonable choice. I think I even remember a hand like:

 

[hv=s=saqxxxxhaxdakxcxx]133|100|1♠-1N(f)

2♦-2♠

3♠-4♠[/hv]

where you don't really want to jump rebid to 3♠ without a good suit and soliciting partner's major preference seems very useful. I suppose I'd have raised 2♥ to 3♥, but then we're likely in the wrong strain and it's unclear if we get back to spades.

 

I suppose I could believe that if partner was always going to pass (or pull to 2♠ with long spades), then maybe 2♥ is reasonable with a good 5 card suit. But we're sure of a 7 card fit in spades vs a 5 card one in hearts, so it seems like if game is still possible we should be showing the more likely fit rather than the less likely one.

[nigel_k]

If 2♥ can be a fairly ordinary five card suit, then it should be somewhat constructive. If partner can raise hearts, he'll have short clubs which is bad opposite our hand. I agree with the reasoning of Peter Gill and others but would say this hand doesn't qualify on strength.

[P_Marlowe]

2S.

 

2H should show a 6 card suit.

If partner has shown 9 cards, than introducing ones own suit showes 6 cards.

The raitionale being, that there are only 4 cards left which may break either

way.

You go for the sure 5-2 fit, instead of risking to play the 5-1 fit.

If you bid 2H, opener should always pass with single, he wont rebid his 5 card

suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

Much as I respect Peter Gill's comments, the next time you bid 2H you will have:

 

void

KQT9xx

xxx

Qxxx

 

Partner with her

5143 shape will believe you have the posted hand and will pull to 2S. What you gain on the swings, Peter, you lose greatly on the roundabouts. Your posted construction is just too much of a rara avis.

[Jlall]

I think the 'standards' (Hopefully STu won't jump on me about 'style') for responder's rebids after a 1N response are:

 

--show a new minor: 6 cards

--show hearts: 5 cards

I don't see why bidding 2D over 2C would show 6. It is routine to bid 2D on almost any 1453 over 2C playing forcing NT. If you don't you will get to a lot of 3-3 fits.

[cnszsun]

For people who thinks opener will correct your 2♥ to 2♠ with suitable hand, I have one question. Does not that sequence show a hand with extras? If the answer is yes, he would not be able to do the correction with weak two suits hand. If the answer is no, then how do opener show extras with 6-4 hands.

[gnasher]

Much as I respect Peter Gill's comments, the next time you bid 2H you will have:

 

void

KQT9xx

xxx

Qxxx

 

Partner with her

5143 shape will believe you have the posted hand and will pull to 2S. What you gain on the swings, Peter, you lose greatly on the roundabouts. Your posted construction is just too much of a rara avis.

A priori*, a specific 5422 shape occurs 16 times as often as a specific 6430. Even if we lose half a board every time responder is 0634, we only have to gain 3.1% on all the 2524 shapes to break even.

 

* I know I haven't taken into account the effects of responder's shape, but I don't believe it will make a significant difference.