Five Card Major

[gnasher]

So what are you rules for when choice of games kicks in?

I think a four-level cue bid should always be choice of game unless either

a) A trump suit is already agreed, or

b) RHO has bid, so that there's a takeout double available, or

 

Sadly, none of my regular partners would agree with this.

 

Edit: and possibly also

c) A choice-of-games interpretation doesn't make any sense (but I can't think of any of these).

Edited August 24, 2009 by gnasher

[rd6789]

Down One.

 

The full hand is not as interesting as the problem IMHO?

at least those of us that passed aren't feeling too embarrassed

 

yes good problem

[WesleyC]

IMO 3S = 0; it is a worse call than Pass.

Can you list a couple of sample hands that are a clear 3S bid?

[rd6789]

IMO 3S = 0; it is a worse call than Pass.

Can you list a couple of sample hands that are a clear 3S bid?

I would say a hand with a good 5 card spade suit (as partner may have to support on Hx) , no diamond stop (with that bid 3NT), no primary heart support and 10 or so points, so KQxxx/Jx/xx/Axxx or even Kxxxxx/Jx/xx/Axx if that is too weak for a 2S opener in your style

[the hog]

IMO 3S = 0; it is a worse call than Pass.

Can you list a couple of sample hands that are a clear 3S bid?

I would say a hand with a good 5 card spade suit (as partner may have to support on Hx) , no diamond stop (with that bid 3NT), no primary heart support and 10 or so points, so KQxxx/Jx/xx/Axxx or even Kxxxxx/Jx/xx/Axx if that is too weak for a 2S opener in your style

Those examples are fair enough; others would be 5S to say KJ.

Sorry, but to bid 3S on the given hand shows a serious lack of hand evaluation.

[Codo]

Those examples are fair enough; others would be 5S to say KJ.

Sorry, but to bid 3S on the given hand shows a serious lack of hand evaluation.

My dear Ron,

 

you have a strong opinion, but no facts to convince me.

 

Sure, if you play with a partner who is willin g to raise on Jx or similar, you better hold strong spades. But why should he, if he knows that we just introduce a 5 card suit? And when he just raises with three, there is no need to have the honours in your suit.

Of course we all would like to have our honours in the long suits, but sometimes the big dealer don't give us suitable cards.

[Winstonm]

The "usual suspects" who are all for bidding here seem to me to be the same ones who on another thread couldn't wait to bid after a 3-level preempt with Kxx, AKxxx, xx, Kxx.

 

That should be the hand in this thread, and all the bidders should be forced to play with themselves with this hand as responder. :lol:

[655321]

IMO 3S = 0; it is a worse call than Pass.

Sorry, but to bid 3S on the given hand shows a serious lack of hand evaluation.

I don't agree with this. I am not a 3♠ bidder, but at least 3♠ is on the menu, whereas Pass is from another planet.

[WesleyC]

Passing on this hand shows a lack of understanding of IMP odds. Game will often go down (sometimes with no play at all) but nevertheless, passing is a big loser in the long run.

 

Regarding 3S vs 4H:

 

Its possible to use 3S to show a maximum passed hand with 5 strong spades, no stopper in diamonds and no tolerance for hearts. This is an extension of how 3S is played by an unpassed hand (without the chance for responder to have 6+S). Simple, useful, but infrequent.

 

I'd rather stretch to open with a good suit on the first round and then to use new suits by a passed hand in competition to show values in a flexible hand. Introducing a 987xx suit isn't ideal but at these colours partner won't expect a suit playable opposite Hx. 3S keeps alive the chance to reach a good 4S or 3NT while still allowing us to play hearts when partner has a good 6c suit.

[wclass___]

Passing on this hand shows a lack of understanding of IMP odds. Game will often go down (sometimes with no play at all) but nevertheless, passing is a big loser in the long run.

You definetly know approximate IMP odds for this particular situation.

Could you, please, elaborate?

[mike777]

4♥, I don't like any reasoning that doesn't raise hearts here.

ditto

[awm]

Some interesting points about the actual hand:

 

(1) If we move one of overcaller's small clubs or spades into diamonds, then 3NT is quite good (expect 3♣, 2♥, 1♠, 3♦).

 

(2) If we move overcaller's small spade into hearts, then 4♥ is quite good (lose one or two hearts and a club). If we move a small club into hearts then 4♥ has some play (need hearts 3-2 or a non-spade lead).

 

(3) If we move one of overcaller's small clubs into spades, then the best game is 4♠. It will make pretty much any time spades are 3-2 (lose 2♠ and 1♣) whereas 4♥ requires hearts 3-3 and might fail even then on a spade lead.

 

(4) It's actually sort of surprising that so many of overcaller's values are in diamonds. If we give overcaller the ♣A instead of the ♦K with the same shape (so ♠Ax ♥AKxxx ♦xx ♣Axxx) then 5♣ is actually a decent game.

 

Keeping in mind that we're a passed hand, opener's values are fairly minimum for a hand with only five hearts. A number of weaker (in hcp) hands with 6♥ offer game prospects (i.e. ♠xx ♥AKQxxx ♦xx ♣Axx is a very good game).

 

This does seem to make a case that we should not pass, and that we want to offer a choice of game contracts if possible rather than making a unilateral decision. In my usual agreements bidding 3♠ is the way to do this (we agree that the cheapest new-suit call, while natural, does not have to be a great suit and partner should not raise without a real fit). Obviously other people feel differently about this, but I'd suggest that especially as a passed hand (where a "great suit" is substantially less likely) my approach is worthy of consideration. The nice things about this rather than Gnasher's method where 4♦ is choice of games are keeping 3NT in the picture (sure pd needs a stopper to bid it), making it easier to get to clubs if that's the best game (otherwise partner has some tough choices over 4♦ with the rounded suits), and retaining the use of 4♦ to show slam prospects in hearts.

[rd6789]

4♥, I don't like any reasoning that doesn't raise hearts here.

ditto

Having been originally for a pass I have come to admit this is very pessimistic, perhaps overly so, but as on the actual hand (and many others I suspect) it is ok so I do no think it is fair to say it is from another planet!

 

but I must agree 3S is bad evalaution because often partner will have no choice but to raise on Hx, where he has 5hearts and no D stop - say Kx,AKxxx,xx,Axxx

 

and to raise hearts with onyl 2 small and a D stop risks us gettign to 4H in only a 5-2 fit when 3NT was the spot

 

so for me 3NT is the bid - as rho hasn't raised D we expect p to have 2 or 3 so we can isolate the preemter by ducking a round - and now we only have to make 9 tricks not 10 and may manage 9 tricks when 4H is hopeless on a bad break - that is the logic for not raising hearts

[wclass___]

Having been originally for a pass I have come to admit this is very pessimistic, perhaps overly so, but as on the actual hand (and many others I suspect) it is ok so I do no think it is fair to say it is from another planet!

:blink: My first instinct was 3N, but now i am sure that Pass is better.

 

Nv-Nv is unusual vulerability, beacuse it is clear partscore fight. You doun't need to bid thin games in such competitive auctions to win as you might already be winning +2;+3;+6;+7 IMPs on this board by agressive overcall strategy. If we also add possibilities of -300 and -500 game bidding odds should change by at least 10-15%.

 

I have observed many bridge players and came to the conclusion that many of them, including some very good players are very conservative when it comes to overcalls, but they are extremely aggressive once their partners make an overcall. This style is not the winning strategy at the table in most instances.

[kfay]

I'm a simple soul so I made a simple raise. 3NT is hoping for too much.

[Jlall]

I would bid 3N. I think people who are saying 3N requires too much are way underestimating the chances that we can shut LHO out by ducking one round of diamonds, and way underestimating the chance that partner has some kind of stopper with us (Qx, Jxx included). LHO doesn't always have good diamonds and an entry.

[benlessard]

Good post AWM

 

 

Justin do you play that a passed hand 3S bid show a good suit or is more like a negative double flexible bid ?