Cascade Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 This is a near perfect hand for 3S. It show 5S and either a H tolerance or a D stopper or rounded 5-5. ... and partner won't expect ♠ AQ10xx or similar B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 4♥, I don't like any reasoning that doesn't raise hearts here. At the table I thought (or rather wondered if) partner might think I had heart tolerance if I bid 3♠. But I hated the spade quality for 3♠. But loved the flexibility as 3NT, 4♥ and 4♠ were all in the picture. Not a regular partner btw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 The perfect call now, if it had been legal, would be a double..... B) As it is, I think 3♠ is aiming for disaster. Partner might raise on Kx or xxx. I think it's close between 3NT and 4♥, not at all sure which I'd chose at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 might raise on Kx Why wont he bid 4D COG with only 2S when you are heavy favorite to have only 5 ? As for having xxx in spades try to construct a hand where 4H will make and 4S will go down and partner Hearts are not so long/strong that he didnt bid a 4D COG. It doesnt take a genius to know that xxxAKJxxxAAxx facing a doubleton H might play better in 4H than in 4S. To bid 4H and give up on 3Nt/4S is way too costly. Its very obvious to me that the risk of 4H not being the good spot is higher than the downside of playing 4S going down while 4H is making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 4♦ choice of games. I think that's best for a passed hand. Someone has discovered a new gadget B) Not sure what you're talking about. Just because I posted about something twice in less than 1 month does not mean that I learned something and will introduce them in every thread, appropriate or not.With a COG you can bid...3♠!Not sure if I agree with that. Partner can pass 3♠, for one. Also, partner will be in a bad spot if we can have anywhere between 5-2 and 7-0. Of course if partner has a COG available, it resolves some of these problems but I don't think all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 I really doubt 4♦ COG is a mainstream treatment here, it's definitely far from standard. With a pick-up expert I'd expect it to be a strong raise to 4♥. Agree 100% might raise on Kx Why wont he bid 4D COG with only 2S when you are heavy favorite to have only 5 ? I am so sorry but most of us aren't that good that our meta agreements differ from these 2 sequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 I agree with that skjaeran, my post was more of a wish than what I'd do with a pick-up expert. But I definitely think 4♦=COG is the best treatment, at least as a passed hand. I remember someone (MFA?) said you can use these cuebids as cog OR a strong raise. Interesting.This 4♦ would be a strong raise for me. That's the general rule at the 4+ level. A cuebid below 3NT could be 2-way as I play. General force (aiming for 3NT or just COG) or a strong raise (hoping to be able to pull 3NT to 4 of partner's suit showing a slam try with genuine support). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmax Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that So you think partner bid 3♥ to play?, the fact that you have 10 more HCP than you could doesn't make you worth a bid? wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Double wow :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 This hand seems perfect for 3S. I've already passed as dealer at Nil so partner won't play me for a weak 2 in spades (ie a strong 5c spade suit or better). Strongly disagree with 4D, which should show a strong heart raise. You need to be able to differentiate between hands that have a REAL heart fit and weak hands (or hands that are pressured into raising on a doubleton). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 IMO 3S = 0; it is a worse call than Pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmax Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that So you think partner bid 3♥ to play?, the fact that you have 10 more HCP than you could doesn't make you worth a bid? wow. So you think that partner 3♥ shows 9 top tricks? Do not remember where I read it , but this concept of bidding over preempt as if partner have 7-8 bal points worked well for me. Correspondinly responder should know that most of his points are already accounted for. So pass NV, 3NT Vul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that So you think partner bid 3♥ to play?, the fact that you have 10 more HCP than you could doesn't make you worth a bid? wow. So you think that partner 3♥ shows 9 top tricks? Do not remember where I read it , but this concept of bidding over preempt as if partner have 7-8 bal points worked well for me. Correspondinly responder should know that most of his points are already accounted for. So pass NV, 3NT Vul Want to play for money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmax Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Want to play for money? yes , but is this really an argument? Original problem score is IMP. Obviuosly money bridge overcalls ( and preempts for that matter) would be different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that So you think partner bid 3♥ to play?, the fact that you have 10 more HCP than you could doesn't make you worth a bid? wow. So you think that partner 3♥ shows 9 top tricks? Do not remember where I read it , but this concept of bidding over preempt as if partner have 7-8 bal points worked well for me. Correspondinly responder should know that most of his points are already accounted for. So pass NV, 3NT Vul 1. You have a King more than 7 hcp. That's a trick. One trick more => let's play 4H not 3H!2. You are a passed hand. If partner had no hope of making game opposite a nice balanced 10 count, he would have passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 I am so sorry but most of us aren't that good that our meta agreements differ from these 2 sequences. (3D)-----3H------(P)-------3S(P)-------??? Here 4D is COG. Slam is possible but COG is simply more important. (3D)-----3H-------(P)------4D here is its slammish not COG. Im not inventing anything, these sequence are expert standard. Ask any exp you trust and they will tell you. Now in our example advancer is a passed hand. So you might have a specific agreement that 4D in 2nd seq is COG and not slammish but i pretty sure its not exp standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 It may not be standard, but I much prefer all of these cue-bids to be choice-of-games. After an enemy preempt, it's much more likely that game is tight than that you have both a fit and the values for a slam, especially when they haven't raised the preempt. If both sequences were choice of game, I think they ought to mean: 3♥ - 4♦ = 4-2 and 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♦ = 2-6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Original problem score is IMP. Obviuosly money bridge overcalls ( and preempts for that matter) would be different. why?? In any textbook you find, imps is assumed to be equivalent to rubber bridge or Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 The perfect call now, if it had been legal, would be a double..... :) As it is, I think 3♠ is aiming for disaster. Partner might raise on Kx or xxx. I think it's close between 3NT and 4♥, not at all sure which I'd chose at the table. Hard to construct hands where 4 heart plays better opposite xxx in spade in partners hand. And he won't raise on Kx because we passed already. Unluckily we have no bid avaiable to show a hand with 5 lousy spades, a diamond stopper and a tolerance for hearts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Im not inventing anything, these sequence are expert standard. Ask any exp you trust and they will tell you. May I ask myself? lol. Ok, won't go harsh, COG is less standard than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 It may not be standard, but I much prefer all of these cue-bids to be choice-of-games. After an enemy preempt, it's much more likely that game is tight than that you have both a fit and the values for a slam, especially when they haven't raised the preempt. If both sequences were choice of game, I think they ought to mean: 3♥ - 4♦ = 4-2 and 3♥ - 3♠ - 4♦ = 2-6 So what are you rules for when choice of games kicks in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd6789 Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 My vote is PASS If partner think that we have game opposite 7-8 random balanced points - he should just have bid it. My hand is not much better than that yes me too as I have said - I expect p to have say AQx/AQxxxx/xx/xx At love all there is less need to big thin games - if rho X's 4H and it goes 3 off I turn -100 into -500 whereas if I bring back 170 to -420 that is less bad say p has AQx/AQxxxx/xx/xx then rho has KJx/KJxx/xx/Axxx will X 4H I expect Is the full hand out there somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sa2hak875dkjct752&w=sjthqdt986542ca43&e=skq53hj9642dq3c86&s=s98764ht3da7ckqj9]399|300|Scoring: IMPPASS (3♦) 3♥ (PASS)3♠ (PASS) 3NT (PASS)PASS (PASS)[/hv] Down One. The full hand is not as interesting as the problem IMHO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Im not inventing anything, these sequence are expert standard. Ask any exp you trust and they will tell you. May I ask myself? lol. Ok, won't go harsh, COG is less standard than you think. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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