Assign the blame

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sqjxxxxhdxxcak10xx&e=sk10xxhxxdj10xxxcxx]266|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠-(3♥)-ps-(4♥)

AP[/hv]

[jillybean]

Sitting East I'd raise to 3 but wouldnt criticize a pass. No blame

[TylerE]

As East I'd probably go ahead and bid 4♠. 3♠ implies more defense, and I'm bidding 4♠ over 4♥ anyway.

[gwnn]

I don't like acting from east but with my 6-5 I think I'd venture a 4♠ bid at favourable. To Tyler: while 3♠ implies more defence, 4♠ implies even more (at least in standard bidding)

[Cascade]

I don't think any blame can be assigned to west. There is no clear action over 4♥.

 

East might have bid 3♠ but that is a bit of a stretch. But could also have bid 4♠ over 4♥. I don't think either action is completely clear.

[Double !]

I would bid 3♠ if for no other reason than to let P know I have support. Same bid that I would've made over 2H. This is a competitive pressure situation, and I'm the one under pressure. I have good 4-card support, we have 9 trumps, hopefully P won't play me for much defense.......with 3-card support the situation would be much different.

 

Problem is, if I pass and my lho makes some bid, my partner won't have a clue what to do unless informed of the spade support. If a close decision is required due to the opps competing, it is often the responder who needs to make that decision. Such is life after pre-empts.

 

As to assessing blame, an activity I abhor, I'll take it. It's totally my fault. Just ask my wife.

 

In retrospect, this hand isn't about assessing blame at all unless you say it's 50-50, that it's the partnership's fault as a team for not having determined how to handle similar situations.

 

DHL:

[kenrexford]

Both, but I think West's pass is more ridiculous, actually.

[Phil]

West but I think this is a tough situation. I don't think East has a 3♠ call over 3♥ and sure as heck doesn't have a 4♠ call since that shows about a limit raise.

 

I would bid 4♠ with West I think. You just have to suck it up in situations like this.

[Codo]

East missed the opportunity to bid 3 Spade and later the judgement to bid 4 Spade.

 

But these are very small crimes, I may had been guilty myself.

[rd6789]

Well as east I am always bidding 3S -we have a 9-card fit so I want to play at the 3-level

 

As west I am always bidding 4S if partner passes - you are 6-5, not a hand to defend with!

 

So assign the blame - both , roughly equal

[the hog]

Well as east I am always bidding 3S -we have a 9-card fit so I want to play at the 3-level

 

As west I am always bidding 4S if partner passes - you are 6-5, not a hand to defend with!

 

So assign the blame - both , roughly equal

The problem is that a 3S bid does NOT show a hand as weak as this. 3S is a limit bid here - you don't have enough room otherwise. You bid 3S here and pd will often bid 4 on a decent hand and you will have no play.

[rd6789]

The problem is that a 3S bid does NOT show a hand as weak as this.

I think that's for agreement - personally my priority here is to tell p I have 4 spades - if he/she has 6 then I expect a 4S bid - I don't know whose hand it is or what the result will be but with a 10-card fit I want to be in 4S. With a better hand with only 5 spades p will know I am under pressure

[655321]

West would like to bid with the 6-5, but there is no clearly right bid - 5♣ goes past 4♠, 4♠ loses when partner has trump tricks against 4♥, and double is just bad. Perhaps he ought to bid 4♠ but it won't always work.

 

To me East gets most of the blame. I would bid 3♠ immediately. Failing that, it can't be right to hear the opponents bid 4♥ vulnerable vs not and meekly sell out without ever having shown KTxx support for partner's spades. So if you don't want to bid 3♠ immediately, bidding 4♠ over 4♥ looks clear.

[Cascade]

West would like to bid with the 6-5, but there is no clearly right bid - 5♣ goes past 4♠, 4♠ loses when partner has trump tricks against 4♥, and double is just bad. Perhaps he ought to bid 4♠ but it won't always work.

4♠ also loses when you belong in your second suit. I suppose occasionally you might be able to run when you are doubled - last time I saw this the players partner immediately gave prefernce back to the first suit to say "wrong".

[Cascade]

Well as east I am always bidding 3S -we have a 9-card fit so I want to play at the 3-level

If your minimum for 3♠ is 4 or fewer HCP then you have 3♠ and 4♠ (and 4♥) I suppose to cover all ranges.

 

I think this will cause inefficiencies.

[cherdanno]

A 3♠ bid in this position shows a the values for a good 1♠-2♠ raise, e.g. 3-card support and 8 hcp. Responder's hand here is slightly too weak for that in playing strength, but only slightly. Then if you consider how often bidding 3♠ will be useful competitively (either because we get to play 3♠, or because partner can bid 4♠ over 4♥), and that this will happen a lot more often then partner's failing penalty double "because we promised defense", it seems obvious that slightly overbidding with 3♠ will win more often than lose.

[Fluffy]

I would prefer that my partner bids 4 spades as east than 3. Leaving 3 spades for constructive hands since you aren't getting away any space.

 

But nevermind pass also a good choice.

 

I like west to bid 4 spades, if the auction was 1♠-(4♥)-ps-(ps) I think most people would reopen with 4 spades. What is the difference from this hand and that?. Oh wait yes, that partner migth bid 4 spades himself with fit, why didn't he do that?

 

The final pass gets the most blame for me.

[mike777]

[hv=d=w&v=n&w=sqjxxxxhdxxcak10xx&e=sk10xxhxxdj10xxxcxx]266|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠-(3♥)-ps-(4♥)

AP[/hv]

50-50

 

 

 

as east I would bid 4s....

 

 

assuming east passes as west i bid 4s.

[uday]

I have a lot of sympathy for W ( and E, really ) but I think Cherdano has it right, and that East should suck it up and overbid with 3S rather than underbid with P.

 

I think a solo 4S is in the "far too wild" camp but sounds like anyone who'd bid it would be fun to have a beer with, if nothing else.

 

U

[cherdanno]

I would prefer that my partner bids 4 spades as east than 3. Leaving 3 spades for constructive hands since you aren't getting away any space.

 

But nevermind pass also a good choice.

 

I like west to bid 4 spades, if the auction was 1♠-(4♥)-ps-(ps) I think most people would reopen with 4 spades. What is the difference from this hand and that?. Oh wait yes, that partner migth bid 4 spades himself with fit, why didn't he do that?

 

The final pass gets the most blame for me.

In US standard bidding, 4S shows a better hand than 3S. You would bid 4S with a 3-card limit raise, and 3S with a constructive raise, leaving 4H for hands really worth a game force.

[fred]

Dealer: West Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ QJxxxx ♥ [space] ♦ xx ♣ AK10xx ♠ K10xx ♥ xx ♦ J10xxx ♣ xx

1♠-(3♥)-ps-(4♥) AP

50-50

 

 

 

as east I would bid 4s....

 

 

assuming east passes as west i bid 4s.

Agree!

 

"Hamman's rule" (if 3NT is a possible bid then bid 3NT) is well known, but he has another lesser known rule that is applicable to this problem:

 

If you aren't prepared to put your b*lls on the table, you are never going to win at this game.

 

Both East and West should be heeding Uncle Bob's advice on this one I think :ph34r:

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[nigel_k]

East 80%.

 

The hand is worth 3♠. Yes, it's a limit raise but under pressure must include hands worth only 2♠ that have maximum values or extra distribution. This clearly qualifies. A hand at the upper end of a limit raise will bid 4♠ to take some of the strain off 3♠, but essentially they have taken up space so it's normal that the bids still available must now cover a wider range of hands.

 

Even after passing 3♥ I would still bid 4♠ over 4♥ with East but that is less clearcut.

 

I'll give West 20% as 4♠ is an option over 4♥, though much more dangerous than bidding with East.

[neilkaz]

East 75% West 25%

 

It really is a stretch for east to bid 3♠ with this hand which really should show a constructive raise or maybe a minimum 3 card limit raise. However, E/W are white vs red and a red jump o/c even when preemptive isn't based on trash. There's a good chance that the opps are going to try for a vul 4♥ and east may wish to encourage his pd to bid 4♠ with any excuse over 4♥.

 

However, having conservatively passed and hearing opener pass, east should take the sac to 4♠ as to me it seems quite clear that 4♥ is making. Vul opps are likely bidding 4♥ to make ! It is still possible that the opps do the wrong thing over 4♠.

 

West has opened a 10 hcp hand with lots of offense but no more defence that AK♣ assuming both cash. At this vul, I think west has to bite the bullet and bid 4♠. Once again, the opps may go wrong.

[benlessard]

If it goes

 

1S------(2H)------???

 

KTx

xx

Jxxxxx

xx

 

Its an easy 2S.

 

So after a 3H red vs W jump overcall. (It shoulndt be just cheese) why wouldnt I bid 3S with an extra trumps ? With any limit raise i would just bid 4S and hope for the best.

 

And west has a clear 4S too.

[Fluffy]

I would prefer that my partner bids 4 spades as east than 3. Leaving 3 spades for constructive hands since you aren't getting away any space.

In US standard bidding, 4S shows a better hand than 3S. You would bid 4S with a 3-card limit raise, and 3S with a constructive raise, leaving 4H for hands really worth a game force.

but what about a weak hand with 5 spades?

 

I would also bid 4 spades with the 3 card limit raise, but I won't bid 3 spades on junk, I prefer pass.