Raising NT

[JoAnneM]

There is some controversy over this sequence among my friends:

 

1s - 1nt

2nt

 

What is the range of the 2nt? I contend 18-19, just like a jump to 2nt over a one level response. Others say 16-17.

[TylerE]

15-17, maybe even a really prime 14. 18-19 can just bid 3NT. This is assuming standard B/I system. (E.g. 2/1 not GF, 1NT not forcing)

[cherdanno]

16-17 in Germany, 18-19 in the US.

[pooltuna]

There is some controversy over this sequence among my friends:

 

1s - 1nt

2nt

 

What is the range of the 2nt? I contend 18-19, just like a jump to 2nt over a one level response. Others say 16-17.

Depends on whether or not your 15-17 1NT calls allow the bidder to hold a 5 card major. If so then 18-19 fits in nicely. If not then you have to use 2NT to show the 15-17 range and bid 3NT with the 18-19

[ONEferBRID]

There is some controversy over this sequence among my friends:

 

1s - 1nt

2nt

 

What is the range of the 2nt?  I contend 18-19, just like a jump to 2nt over a one level response.  Others say 16-17.

Playing 2/1 where 1NT = forcing 1 Rnd, Max Hardy says for:

1M - 1NTF

??

2NT = 18, 19

3NT = 16-18 and a solid 6 cd Major.

 

- - Don - - ( TWOferBRIDGE )

[Winstonm]

Strangely enough, the answer lies in your 1NT opening agreements.

 

If you open almost all 15-17 balanced hands that contain 5 hearts or 5 spades with 1NT, then the bid shows 18-19.

 

If you open those hands one of the major, then the 2NT raise has to be used to show an opening NT hand.

 

Anyway, that is my take. I am sure others will loudly (and quite wrongly, of course :rolleyes: ) disagree.

[Phil]

I can't comment on sayc if thats the question you are asking.

 

In 2/1, 2N definitely shows 18-19 (good 17's are thrown in too).

 

By the way, I don't know of any top pair that uses 2N as 15-17, even if they don't open 1N with a 5 card major. Those hands bid 2 of a minor and rebid 2N.

[pooltuna]

I can't comment on sayc if thats the question you are asking.

 

In 2/1, 2N definitely shows 18-19 (good 17's are thrown in too).

 

By the way, I don't know of any top pair that uses 2N as 15-17, even if they don't open 1N with a 5 card major. Those hands bid 2 of a minor and rebid 2N.

OH GOODY!!!! Let's really help the defense figure out my distribution before they make the opening lead :rolleyes:

[Gerben42]

2NT is invitational, so it should be something like good 16 to bad 18. Could be 5422 or even 6322, if you ask me.

[Lobowolf]

15-17, maybe even a really prime 14. 18-19 can just bid 3NT. This is assuming standard B/I system. (E.g. 2/1 not GF, 1NT not forcing)

15-17, maybe even a really prime 14.

 

This hand can just bid 1NT (the first time). Pass on 2NT with 14-15 opposite 6.

 

1♠-1NT;

2NT

 

18-19

[bid_em_up]

15-17, maybe even a really prime 14. 18-19 can just bid 3NT. This is assuming standard B/I system. (E.g. 2/1 not GF, 1NT not forcing)

15-17, maybe even a really prime 14.

 

This hand can just bid 1NT (the first time). Pass on 2NT with 14-15 opposite 6.

 

1♠-1NT;

2NT

 

18-19

Of course, it can. However, there are those who still refuse to open 1N when holding a five card major suit, and it is those people who will bid 2N when holding 15-17 after opening 1M.

[Cascade]

It depends how often you open 1NT with a five-card major.

 

This varies from always to never.

 

If always you rarely will need a natural invitational 2NT.

 

If never you often will need a natural invitational 2NT.

 

If 1NT is not forcing then I would ideally like around 17-18 for 2NT and pass on weaker hands. Although if 1NT is frequently 10 HCP then you probably need to raise on 16 HCP.

[TylerE]

Again, my posts were assuming typical B/I methods (e.g. Not 5CM 1NT open). At least around here, most B/Is would never think of opening 1NT with a major...and most of the experts do it all the time.

[Lobowolf]

Must be a geographic thing. Opening 1NT with a 5-card major isn't at all uncommon out here. Probably the Marty Bergen influence.

[jillybean]

Again, my posts were assuming typical B/I methods (e.g. Not 5CM 1NT open). At least around here, most B/Is would never think of opening 1NT with a major...and most of the experts do it all the time.

I think we might surprise you.

[Cascade]

The basic SAYC notes say

 

"Notrump openings show a balanced hand and can be made with a five-card major or minor suit."

[Lobowolf]

B/I players at clubs and tournaments around here generally play S.A. (to a lesser extent, 2/1), but not specifically the SAYC.

[y66]

1N = 6-10, 2N = 17-19 per Bill Root, Commonsense Bidding, 1986

 

IN = 6-9, 2N asks responder to bid 3N with a maximum (8-9) or pass with a minimum (6-7) per Dorothy Hayden Truscott, Bid Better, Play Better, 1998.

 

1N is forcing, 2N = 17-18 usually (19 is possible) per Alan Truscott, The Bidding Dictionary (BWS based), 1996.

 

1N is forcing, 2N shows 18-19 per Mike Lawrence, Flash Cards, 2003. Flawed 17 counts, such as AKJxx, xx, Jx, AKJx can rebid 2C and then raise 2D, 2H or 2S to 2N.

[Winstonm]

Perhaps the best solution is to analyze the problem for yourself? What would you bid in this sequence holding this: Kxxxx, AQ, Kxx, KJx

 

1S-1N

?

 

It is simple to realize that if you assign an 18-19 range to the 2N bid you do not have a rebid available for the posted hand.

 

The other consideration is what do you do with 18-19 point hands if the 2N bid is 16-17? The answer is these hands would have to rebid 3N, would they not, which then affects how weak the initial response of responder can be. It would be awkward for opener to rebid 3N and responder to hold x, xx, Jxxxx, Qxxxx.

 

It is the ripple effect - rarely in bridge does one thing not affect many others.

[Roupoil]

In France, where almost nobody ever opens 1NT with a 5-card major, 2NT is still 18-19 (although many beginners/intermediates don't know it and bid 2NT with 15-17). With no proper rebid (5332 in the 15-17 range), we bid a three-card minor.

[mich-b]

Perhaps the best solution is to analyze the problem for yourself?  What would you bid in this sequence holding this: Kxxxx, AQ, Kxx, KJx

 

1S-1N

?

 

Open 1NT.

And if for some reason you didn't, rebid 2♣.

[maggieb]

Perhaps the best solution is to analyze the problem for yourself?  What would you bid in this sequence holding this: Kxxxx, AQ, Kxx, KJx

 

1S-1N

?

 

It is simple to realize that if you assign an 18-19 range to the 2N bid you do not have a rebid available for the posted hand.

I had such high hopes for this post after the first sentence.

[Quantumcat]

It should be fairly obvious by now that when you don't open 1NT holding a five card major, you totally screw yourself for the rest of the auction. I don't know why people do it! You can still find the five card major sometimes, even without playing any fancy methods. After 1NT 2C 2S 2NT, if you have a maximum, you can bid 3S. And after 1NT 2D 2H 2NT, with a maximum and 2 hearts and 5 spades, you can bid 3S.

[karlson]

Wow, surprised by all the controversy. Thought 18-19 was pretty standard, at least in the US.

[Quantumcat]

Yes, it is standard. People are only having a problem because they think having a five card major makes them unbalanced, but then later in the auction, they realise they are balanced and have no bid - tisk tisk tisk!