manudude03 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 [hv=d=n&v=e&s=skq7ht983daqct743]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv] Sitting North: 1C-(1H)-X-(3H)P-(P)-X-(P)?? 1C could be doubleton (if 4432).3H is showing a full value limit raise (10-12ish) Do you agree with opening? What now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Don't agree with the opening. Now pass wtp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 take out the take out double, partner won't understand 3NT as minors will he?, I think I will try 4 clubs then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Pass. Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory.Kaplan/Rubens evaluates it to 9.8 HCP. When you also consider the preemptive and lead directional value, it's really a no-brainer isn't it? Anyway if one of my small clubs was the queen I would bid 3♠ now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I also don't like the opening.Pass now is a very poor call. I am bidding 3S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Would not have opened, would pass now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I wouldn't have opened. I don't mind chunky 11's with some 10's, but come on, more than half the hand is a doubleton. I hate this position. Didn't pard hear "limit raise"? While pard looks like 4-0-5-4 or 4-0-6-3, this will be a tough hand to beat unless dummy is surprisingly balanced. I think I'm opting for 3♠, It looks like we can scramble quite a few tricks on a heart lead: ruff heart, diamond, ruff heart, diamond, ruff heart, A♠, my spades and a club gets us to 9. I'd probably pass at MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 You will encounter these problems when playing a strong no trump system. If you choose to open on waste paper then you will greatly increase the frequency of the problem hands. 3♠ now and a note to self to only open opening hands in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Very much agree with the opening - W/R I think it is mandatory.Kaplan/Rubens evaluates it to 9.8 HCP. When you also consider the preemptive and lead directional value, it's really a no-brainer isn't it?Oh dear. You can probably find many threads on light openings if you search the forums. W/R magnifies the gains and reduces the losses from this style.And I strongly believe that at the vulnerability, it is good to open on any excuse - that it is best to vary the minimum strength of your openings with the vulnerability. Now you might Pass because you disagree with this philosophy. Fair enough, there are different styles of bidding. But your reasons for passing... 1) This hand is a not-great 11 count, but to evaluate it as 9.8 is just silly. Is it possible that the K&R algorithm is not 100% accurate for every hand? BTW, I also recommend that you use judgement instead of Rules of 20 or Zar points too (but thank you for not telling me how this hand evaluates under those methods!). 2) Not preemptive? The very fact that you have opened the bidding means that the opponents are in their overcall structure instead of their opening bid structure. Again we disagree. 3) Lead directional value? This assumes partner will be on lead, and is very low down on my list of reasons for bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Oh dear, so Nigel gave some reasons why he dislikes the opening bid. You give your opinion. And the idea that the Kaplan/Rubens evaluator is broken. And besides this, you really think that your opps cannot handle a natural 1 club opening well? And that they are on unsure ground after you use this tool of a devil, just because they need to use their overcall structure instead of their opening structure? Maybe you should stop playing lols. On the actual hand there is just one side with problems and this is ours. Our problems had been much lower when we had not opened. One hand does not prove anything. But it proves more then one opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Pass. Automatic. Partner won't have hidden 6-card suits and voids for this sequence, when he could bid 3♠ or 4♣/♦. It looks as if he is 4153 or 4144 here, which is about the most offensive oriented shapes possible for his bidding. Pass, and I expect to see a trump lead. This could very easily be +500 against nothing or +800 against a game with just a little luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Oh dear, so Nigel gave some reasons why he dislikes the opening bid. You give your opinion. And the idea that the Kaplan/Rubens evaluator is broken. And besides this, you really think that your opps cannot handle a natural 1 club opening well? And that they are on unsure ground after you use this tool of a devil, just because they need to use their overcall structure instead of their opening structure? Maybe you should stop playing lols. On the actual hand there is just one side with problems and this is ours. Our problems had been much lower when we had not opened. One hand does not prove anything. But it proves more then one opinion. You are right, one hand proves nothing. Here, for example, I expect +500 or +800 because my LHO had to show values and hit RHO with a minimum for his (possibly 4-card) overcall, but this doesn't prove opening was correct. Btw, some good players have problems after overcalling, too, because their overcalls have a pretty wide range - they don't know whether they are bidding constructively or destructively after all. And do you really think this hand is worth 9.8 points only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Presummably you have agreements to deal with lite opening hands so no problems with opening. Similarly I expect partner to have values for his double and so I pass at this stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 We: 11CHO: 10LHO: 9RHO: 10-------------Total: 40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrei Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 I would add some (2-3) points to CHO and subtract them from LHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 This might be a good time to ask if 3♥ shows 4 or could be 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 You are right, one hand proves nothing. Here, for example, I expect +500 or +800 because my LHO had to show values and hit RHO with a minimum for his (possibly 4-card) overcall, but this doesn't prove opening was correct. Btw, some good players have problems after overcalling, too, because their overcalls have a pretty wide range - they don't know whether they are bidding constructively or destructively after all. And do you really think this hand is worth 9.8 points only? Sure if you play opps, who bid on lousy four card suits in this vul., you may reach some 500 and 800 against these lunatic juniors.Against senior citizens you will pay 500 or 800. They tend to have their values while red. And you think the range of their overcalls is bigger then the range of their openings?Interesting idea. I always thought that nothing has such a big range then an one of a suit opener in a natural system. I myself would rate this just a little short of an opener. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Thanks for the replies. I chose to pass and found quite a surprising layout (the only other junior was CHO). Needless to say there were some heated words after. [hv=d=n&v=e&n=skq7ht983daqct743&w=s943hqj74dj87caq8&e=sa65hak652dk92c52&s=sjt82hdt6543ckj96]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv] 3H was cold with both ♣K and ♦A onside and could easily have been +1, not that it mattered much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 wow @ SE at least I got the hcp's for two hands right :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Kaplan/Rubens evaluates it to 9.8 HCP. Sounds right to me. I wouldn't object to 10.0 but more than that would be too much. BTW I don't understand partner's 2nd double. Pass wtp, but if he can't stomach to pass with a void, then 3♠ should show this shape when having shown exactly four spades already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 I really don't understand the 2nd double. Opps have bid to the 3-level showing values, and you've got almost nothing. Pass should be more than obvious. Btw, east could easily have bid 4♥ here, which is a very lucky make on this layout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Well, my 2 cents, I think it was a poor opening even w/r and regardless of your no trump range. Now I think I try 3 spades - or maybe 4 clubs - don't like it, but I think I have myself to blame opening this dren in the first place. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdanno Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 And you think the range of their overcalls is bigger then the range of their openings?Interesting idea. I always thought that nothing has such a big range then an one of a suit opener in a natural system. The range for openings is s.th. like 11-21. The range of a simple overcall is s.th. like 7-19 for many. But even if your range is 8-18 (in which case you may run into other problems, e.g. by doubling with a 19 count and a singleton major), that's effectively a wider range than 11-21. If you make a 11-21 opening bid, most of your hands will fall into the 11-14 range. If you make an 8-18 overcall, most of your hands will fall into the 8-13 range, a considerably wider range. As for "senior citizens" having their values here, last time I checked Versace is a bit older than 30. So is Welland. Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 LOL @ the 2nd double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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