benlessard Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 [hv=d=n&v=b&n=skqt9xxxxhdaxxxxc&s=sajxhaqxxdkckxxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] 4S all pass. wich is worse opening 4S or passing 4S ? No need to tell you it wasnt us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 I think the North hand too strong for a 4♠ opening, but it's a bit unlucky to find partner with a hand where you can make slam. Passing 4♠ is normal and obvious - the five level isn't safe, and there's no great likelihood of a slam anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 I wouldn't say obvious Andy, partner is vulnerable, "just" the club ace gives us easy 12 tricks, and althou we do not have 5 level safety, 5 spades cannot be a hopeless contract either. Having 3 spades suggests partner might be 7-4, that is great whatever his suit. Hard not to be biased, maybe I would pass at the table, but I lead forward to an agressive 4NT. What is the correct answer to blackwood with north's hand? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 North has way to much potential, IMHO, to open 4♠ he can make a slam opposite very little if there's any help at all in ♦. Owning the boss suit I just start with 1♠. South could bid on, however, but opposite normal preempts his K of ♦ is often useless and his K of ♣ maybe useless and perhaps there is a ♥ loser. All that does seem pessimistic, and the 5 level is likely safe, but a normal 4♠ preempt likely won't have what is needed for slam, IMHO, but if 4♠ can be this wide ranging maybe he should try for slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 I would pass with South. Slam is good opposite KQxxxxxx x xx Ax but there are plenty of hands with two key cards where it's not great, and you could do down at the five level. If partner is liable to open 4♠ on a wide range of hands, the odds might be with bidding though. I can't claim any vast depth of experience in bidding hands with two voids, but would open at the one level with North. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 When you play a grand slam in game, there's a good chance both partners did something wrong and this is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobowolf Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 When you play a grand slam in game, there's a good chance both partners did something wrong and this is the case. HAHAHAHA. Great general rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 It depends on your standards for 4♠. While the shape is extreme this isn't that strong for us. That is not to say that I think it is necessarily best. Given that I would move with the south hand expecting between 8 and 9 tricks opposite. Blackwood looks like the right move. If your standards for 4♠ are weaker then PASS is ok and 4♠ less good. One problem with 4♠ on this is that after 4NT say by an opponent or a five-level bid there are many hands where you belong in 5♠ or higher and partner won't move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennye Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Opening 4S on an 8-5 hand with good spaes and diamnd ac is insanity You can always outbid everybody and you shut out partner on many hnds tht produce sla. I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbforster Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S! ...only 3 losers, after all. who says you need enough defense if partner doubles if they bid over your strong 2♣, you weren't sitting for it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 I would open a strong 2C before I ould open 4S! ...only 3 losers, after all. who says you need enough defense if partner doubles if they bid over your strong 2♣, you weren't sitting for it anyway. And this is the rub with these silly 2C openings isn't it? Partner trusts your bidding and thinks you have the goods to beat a contract; you don't, so you pull. All this makes for great partnership bridge! :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd6789 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Well I'm in the 'opening 4S is daft' camp - I play 4S is a preempt.... this hand has way too much potential. As south I would pass a 4S opener playing v my regular partners as I am certain North won't have KQ to 8 and an Ace - too strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Does 4♠ in principle deny a first-round control in a side suit? Maybe, but absent such an agreement, South must figure that North is likely to have a first-round control somewhere since his spades can't be that good. Maybe North ought to a 8311 or 9211 shape. Otherwise South gets part of the blame. But a vulnerable preemt with two voids goes too far IMHO. So most of the blame to North. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 The 4♠ opening can best be classified as a psyche. It might work, but it isn't a proper description of the hand. South might move on his hand, but, on a bad day, he could be turning a plus into a minus. Partner could have: KQTxxxxxxxxxx or KQTxxxxxxxxxx These hands are legitimate 4♠ opening bids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 [hv=d=n&v=b&n=skqt9xxxxhdaxxxxc&s=sajxhaqxxdkckxxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv] 4S all pass. wich is worse opening 4S or passing 4S ? No need to tell you it wasnt us. I think opening 4♠ is slightly worse than passing 4♠ and not that opening 4♠ won't work well fairly often. I would have preferred to open 1♠ and rebid 4 to show a better hand than a direct 4♠ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 IMO: N: 4S: 0something else: 10 S: _P: 10Bid on: 5 Eschew obfuscation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 When asked about the hand i said that i would have opened 4D namyats, if not i could choose both ways and find 4S OK even if I know that most will consider it a 1M automatic. Ive said that ill never pass with south hand. And that since north is unlikely to have a stiff diamonds going down in 5 is highly unlikely while making 6 is a clear possibility. When my partner was asked he basically said the same thing. We prefer to open 4M as much as i can. From 4 to 6 losers. AKJTxxxx with a side A (or many 4 losers) will be considered too strong for most of you, but im willing to miss some slams if my chance of playing 4M is increased compared to open 1 and be forced to make a 5 level decision after they find a defensive fit. I keep a good look on hands where 1M is opened at one table and 4 at the other. A so far its a win for "heavy preempts" vs "shapely openings". So i dont think ill be changing my style anytime soon. Of course one of the downside is to be "forced" to open 3 instead of 4 some 7 losers hands. But at the end what matters most is partnership agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 IMO: opening the north hand 4S (rather than 1S) will lose you an average of about 5 IMPs a board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 I think a 4S opening vulnerable should show a decent hand. But opening 4S with three outside first round controls is waaaay too much for me. Whether the South hand should move over 4S is an interesting question, I think it's close, but pass is probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarceldB Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 We prefer to open 4M as much as i can. From 4 to 6 losers. I prefer to preempt too but in my system with a more descriptive bid regardingshape and HCP 3NT - 4♣5♠ - 7♠Pass 3NT= 7-9 HCP, 5+/6+ ♠/♦ v.v.4♣= positive relay5♠= 8=0=5=0, and a pure good maximum7♠= must be K♠ + AQ♦ or KQ♠+A♦ Relayer, if needed , can ask with5NT= how are your high honours A+K+Q divided? 6♣= 2♦ hon. + 1♠ hon.6♦= AKQ♦6♥=2♠ hon.+ 1♦ hon.6♠= AKQ♠ For the sake of good order:posted this just to show you that within the framework of a Weak Opening Systemit is important that the openings describe more then: 1 have this suit and this pointrange, to help partner, who is automatically the relayer, with his decisions. Regards,Marcel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) "freedom to use any bidding system is vital to the development of bidding theory Lukasz Slawinski, 1978" Love your signature. Edited August 22, 2009 by Cascade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 The 4♠ opening can best be classified as a psyche. It might work, but it isn't a proper description of the hand. South might move on his hand, but, on a bad day, he could be turning a plus into a minus. Partner could have: KQTxxxxxxxxxx or KQTxxxxxxxxxx These hands are legitimate 4♠ opening bids. thinking about 9 card spade suit, specially when we have 3 is not very good, I think chances of 8 spades vs 9 will be like 15-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted August 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Not to mention the stiff vs stiff diamond. Partner is favorite to have KQxxxxxx at least 2D. A side ace/trick is surely possible for me. or KQxxxxx and a 4 card side suit (probably D) and once again a side ace is surely possible. So the 5 level is very safe and 6 is a clear possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 Misiry anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted August 22, 2009 Report Share Posted August 22, 2009 The 4♠ opening can best be classified as a psyche. It might work, but it isn't a proper description of the hand. South might move on his hand, but, on a bad day, he could be turning a plus into a minus. Partner could have: KQTxxxxxxxxxx or KQTxxxxxxxxxx These hands are legitimate 4♠ opening bids. As Fluffy said above they are also extremely low frequency hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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