Stop, Jumping

[jeremy69]

I think there is a number of regulations that have been in force over a number of years, are perfectly simple, are understood by the vast majority of players but there is quite often a lack of adherence to them and the stop procedure is a good example of this. Some players play their game in the club with the express intention of finishing quickly to get to the bar so a couple of stops represents 20 seconds drinking time. Another set believe that they should interpret the stop procedure so that in a sequence such as 1NT No STOP 3NT it is not necessary to stop so they don't and probably 99.2% of the time it makes little difference. If someone does not stop and it is their first game of duplicate I would not dream of fining them but I would explain pleasantly what the problem is but to the serial offender who will not give two brain cells to being ethical I will show little sympathy. He or she will, of course, complain that their opponents are being barrack room lawyers, spoiling the game etc but in truth it is them who by their deliberately careless attitude are causing unnecessary vexation to many! (I feel better for that!).

[Cyberyeti]

I think there is a number of regulations that have been in force over a number of years, are perfectly simple, are understood by the vast majority of players but there is quite often a lack of adherence to them and the stop procedure is a good example of this. Some players play their game in the club with the express intention of finishing quickly to get to the bar so a couple of stops represents 20 seconds drinking time. Another set believe that they should interpret the stop procedure so that in a sequence such as 1NT No STOP 3NT it is not necessary to stop so they don't and probably 99.2% of the time it makes little difference. If someone does not stop and it is their first game of duplicate I would not dream of fining them but I would explain pleasantly what the problem is but to the serial offender who will not give two brain cells to being ethical I will show little sympathy. He or she will, of course, complain that their opponents are being barrack room lawyers, spoiling the game etc but in truth it is them who by their deliberately careless attitude are causing unnecessary vexation to many! (I feel better for that!).

I'm curious, why is 1N - 3N without a stop offender treated as innocent but you'd fine the fast passer afterwards. On some of those occasions I've not noticed a stop bid has been made when no stop cards have been pulled and passed immediately.

 

Indeed I would have some sympathy with somebody who bid insufficiently over an unannounced stop thinking the bid was a level lower, but I'm sure the law has none.

 

At the crass level, if you wanted to cheat, you could ascribe minisculely different point counts to 1N-4N and 1N-stop 4N, and if there is no penalty for failure to stop, you're never going to get called on this.

[cherdanno]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

[gordontd]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

[jillybean]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

[mjj29]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I am very careful to pause where required. Sometimes I even manage to do so without my hand hovering over the pass cards :)

[awm]

I used to pause ten seconds for skip bids. A funny situation at nationals a couple years back convinced me to stop doing this.

 

The situation was as follows. After partner passed, my RHO opened 3♥ (stop card on the table). I had a pretty lousy hand and did not really have anything to think about. But since a skip bid was made, I hesitated the required ten seconds (trying my best to look like I was thinking) before passing. LHO raised to 4♥ and all passed.

 

In order to make 4♥, declarer had to obtain a trick from the spade suit. The position was:

 

[hv=n=sktx&w=saxx&e=sqjxx&s=s98x]399|300|[/hv]

 

Declarer lead the spade nine, I played low in tempo and partner won the queen. Partner lead a minor suit which declarer ruffed, and declarer played a low spade to which I again played small in tempo.

 

Now declarer called for the king. The dummy was convinced that this was the wrong play and that the contract would now fail, but of course it was the winning line.

 

After the hand, declarer was asked why he played the king of spades on the second round. His answer was: "You thought so long over 3♥ that I was sure you must have some cards. You hadn't shown up with much, so I played you for the spade ace."

 

Hmm. Since then I have been careful to hesitate only 7-8 seconds over skip bids... just like (apparently) almost everyone else.

[shyams]

I have some thoughts on the Stop card similar to jillybean & cherdanno.

 

The problems are in situations (some examples below):

A. Pass - (1NT) - Pass - (2C); Pass - (2D) - Pass - "Stop" (3NT) ... to what purpose?

B. (1M) - Pass - (1NT forc) - Pass; (2x) - pass - (2M/4M) ... If 4M, a Stop card is brandished (assume 4M shows game values) but the next player is least likely to act. Obviously the 2M (2-cards + 6-9 HCP) does not need "Stop", yet the 2M bid is more likely to require the person time to think.

C. (Opps passing) 1M - 2C(GF); 2x - 2M; 3Y - 3Z (both cue); "Stop" 4NT ... helps opponents or partner?

D. Purely hypothetical example (though I suspect may have happened to someone):

(Opps passing) "Stop" 2NT - 3C; 3D - (forgets stop card) 4NT; all pass. Declarer makes 12 tricks cold, then tells partner

"I thought you bid 3NT. Why didn't you put the Stop card?".

E. Time is relative (at least, to me). When I have nothing to think, 5-6 seconds feels like 10 seconds. When I have a decision to make, 10 seconds feels like 5-6!

 

Until today I have been in the "interpret the stop procedure" camp. I rarely pull out the STOP card in 1NT - 3NT sequences; or in 1NT - 2C - 2any - 3NT sequences. If I was a defender in A) above, I'd even occasionally pass in <10 seconds (not always). Having read other people's posts, I may change my attitude for the sake of compliance with the law but I am yet to be convinced.

 

The people who post here are experts and highly ethical people; I'd never worry about your usage of Stop cards. It's just that not every player I encounter in clubs is as ethical and knowledgeable as you lot.

 

PS: I'd really like to know what to do if D. above ever happened at my table. Do I call the Director and ask him to take action (which could be severe)?

[skjaeran]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

I've often seen the stopcard used in that auction. I've even seen partner need more than the standard 10 second pause before passing too. And having the TD called after I led a spade from a doubleton with 2443 distribution and a couple of stray jacks.

 

Btw, the TD allowed the lead, a ruling which was upheld by the AC.

[bluejak]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I do, and at least two of them post here.

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

May I assume you are in North America?

 

While a lot of players in England err by taking the Stop card away very quickly, and also by not waiting ten seconds when it is withdrawn quickly, most players routinely produce the Stop card in any auction with a jump. So In England/Wales I would expect at least 90% of players to produce a Stop card in the auction 1NT p 3NT. The advantage of getting into a good habit is it makes it easy.

 

:ph34r:

 

I also remember acting as a cuddly [Appeals Adviser] back when I used to play in the Tollemache [nowadays I am always at the Fall Nationals]. The bidding went 1NT pass Stop 3NT ten second or so delay Pass Pass Pass and the opening leader fished out the ♠K from Kx!!!! It was ruled back on the basis that a ten second pause was a BIT because a lot of people do not bother.

 

I told them to appeal and was fairly annoyed when they lost. The trouble is that even with players who follow the rules generally in England most people's pause over a Stop bid, and most people's keeping the card out, is more like five or six seconds than ten.

[blackshoe]

I don't think I've seen the stop card used in that auction.

That doesn't matter in most jurisdictions. The regulations put the onus on the skip bidder's LHO to pause 10 seconds, whether the stop card is used or not.

[jillybean]

May I assume you are in North America?

Yes, #1 city in the world.

 

It was ruled back on the basis that a ten second pause was a BIT because a lot of people do not bother.

Gawd, that is awful.

[JoAnneM]

Bruce, I just realized you are the person who did our D20 Reno Daily Bulletin a couple of years ago. Good job, and thanks!

 

Jo Anne

[Mbodell]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

Around here, despite being in the ACBL, people regularly use the stop card in this action. And many, but not all, also properly stop for 10 seconds in this sequence.

[JoAnneM]

I have some thoughts on the Stop card similar to jillybean & cherdanno.

 

The problems are in situations (some examples below):

A. Pass - (1NT) - Pass - (2C); Pass - (2D) - Pass - "Stop" (3NT) ... to what purpose?

B. (1M) - Pass - (1NT forc) - Pass; (2x) - pass - (2M/4M) ... If 4M, a Stop card is brandished (assume 4M shows game values) but the next player is least likely to act. Obviously the 2M (2-cards + 6-9 HCP) does not need "Stop", yet the 2M bid is more likely to require the person time to think.

C. (Opps passing) 1M - 2C(GF); 2x - 2M; 3Y - 3Z (both cue); "Stop" 4NT ... helps opponents or partner?

D. Purely hypothetical example (though I suspect may have happened to someone):

(Opps passing) "Stop" 2NT - 3C; 3D - (forgets stop card) 4NT; all pass. Declarer makes 12 tricks cold, then tells partner

"I thought you bid 3NT. Why didn't you put the Stop card?".

E. Time is relative (at least, to me). When I have nothing to think, 5-6 seconds feels like 10 seconds. When I have a decision to make, 10 seconds feels like 5-6!

 

Until today I have been in the "interpret the stop procedure" camp. I rarely pull out the STOP card in 1NT - 3NT sequences; or in 1NT - 2C - 2any - 3NT sequences. If I was a defender in A) above, I'd even occasionally pass in <10 seconds (not always). Having read other people's posts, I may change my attitude for the sake of compliance with the law but I am yet to be convinced.

 

The people who post here are experts and highly ethical people; I'd never worry about your usage of Stop cards. It's just that not every player I encounter in clubs is as ethical and knowledgeable as you lot.

 

PS: I'd really like to know what to do if D. above ever happened at my table. Do I call the Director and ask him to take action (which could be severe)?

This was probably a rhetorical question but, depending on the quality of the director, I would call. The pair has already been penalized on the score because the player expects stop cards to assist his bidding, but he really needs a lecture on proprieties in front of the rest of nearby tables, and maybe everyone will get a good lesson.

[jillybean]

I discovered last night why players don't use the ALERT card - there are none :lol:

I found a single alert card in one bidding box (sitting EW), none of my RHO's paused after I used the stop card or used one when they could have.

This seems to be the norm here, when in Rome..

[Finch]

I don't know anyone who pauses for 10 seconds after P 1N P 3N.

I always do.

 

(Don't double count, I'm probably already covered by gordonrtd's list)

 

I always hold the stop card out for a slow count of 10 (which in practice is slightly under 10 seconds) before removing it. However fast my LHO has acted, my partner never acts until it has gone.

 

I always wait for a slow count of 10 after my RHO has made a jump bid, however long (or if at all) he has shown the stop card for.

 

While I agree that there are some non-jump auctions where a 'stop' would be handy, I definitely don't think that some of these 'no-one ever thinks' auctions should be unstoppered, as it were. I've seen the auction P 1NT P 3NT dbl a couple of times, for example. I've even had my LHO bid Blackwood, jump to 7NT and been grateful for my partner's 10 second stop before it came round to me (I had an ace, and needed the time to work out if a double would encourage or discourage the winning lead).