Stop, Jumping

[blackshoe]

Hang on a minute. I've been told by no less a luminary than Rick Beye, who at the time (a couple of years ago) was CTD of the ACBL, and by Mike Flader, who writes the "Ruling the Game" column for the ACBL Bulletin, that use of the skip bid (or stop card) procedure is optiona (but if you elect not to use it, you should never use it, and if you do use it you should always use itl. Has that changed?

[jillybean]

Well if you dont know,its no wonder the rest of us are just making it up as we go along :P

[blackshoe]

ACBLScore seems to be for directors, I was thinking guidelines for new players;

 

- How to use a stop card

- How to protect your rights when the opps break tempo

- What to do when your partner has given an incorrect explanation

- What is tempo and can you pause to think before you bid.

- What to do if you have forgotten to alert.

- What to do when you discover you have revoked.

- What do I do if you think there has been UI during an auction

 

Other than trying to find this in the laws of DCB, and who in their right mind would do that, I dont know where to get this information.

Right here. :P

 

- How to use a stop card - See Joanne's post upthread.

- How to protect your rights when the opps break tempo - say to them "I think there's been a break in tempo here, do you agree?" If they do not, they should call the director.

- What to do when your partner has given an incorrect explanation - call the director. The correct time to do this, if your side is declaring, is after the final pass, and before the opening lead. If your side is defending the correct time is after the play is completed.

- What is tempo and can you pause to think before you bid. - Tempo is the speed (or lack therof :) ) with which you make calls and plays. An even tempo (always the same time between your RHO's action and yours, or as close to it as you can get) is highly desirable. Yes, you can pause to think before you bid, but remember that a variation in tempo (slow or fast) may give UI to your partner.

- What to do if you have forgotten to alert. - call the director. Do so as soon as you raalize your mistake. Same thing if you give an incorrect explanation, and later realize it was wrong.

- What to do when you discover you have revoked. -Call the director.

- What do I do if you think there has been UI during an auction - See "how to protect your rights when opponents break tempo". Law 16B1{a} lists several potential sources of UI. Breaks in tempo (fast or slow) are but two of them. Law 16B2 tells players what to do when they believe any source of UI is present. Get agreement that UI was present, or the opponents should call the director. If you believe UI has been used call the director when play on the hand ends (Law 16B3).

[barmar]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

I hope you realize that this is just as bad, probably even worse, than not pausing at all. An important point of the stop card is that RHO shouldn't be able to tell whether the jump bid gave LHO a problem to think about, i.e. it should prevent UI due to the tempo break. That's why the regulation specifically says "Any obvious display of disinterest is most improper." Can it be more obvious that stating it out loud?

[Gerardo]

Yes. I don't have moderator powers in here or I'd have moved it already.

Ed, where would you move this to?

[jillybean]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

I hope you realize that this is just as bad, probably even worse, than not pausing at all. An important point of the stop card is that RHO shouldn't be able to tell whether the jump bid gave LHO a problem to think about, i.e. it should prevent UI due to the tempo break. That's why the regulation specifically says "Any obvious display of disinterest is most improper." Can it be more obvious that stating it out loud?

I don't know if the average club player does know this and this is where the problems start. Without being taught we learn by example, and often the example is wrong. This player was probably taught part of the procedure, 'you must wait 10seconds', most players just ignore the stop card. I believe there are a number of procedures which should be followed during the auction and play period or when an infraction occurs. This is why I asked about guidelines.

 

When I play against an experienced field the game typically runs smoothly, there are no issues with UI, unnecessary comments and so on. Change that to open or 0-299’er field and there are a number of incidents of UI, players making their own, (incorrect) rulings or comments when they shouldn’t.

 

Have you all just learned this as you’ve gone along or where did it come from? :)

[jillybean]

Right here.  :)

 

Thanks Ed, I need you as a reference guide at all my games.

[blackshoe]

Gerardo: Laws and Rulings, I think.

Jilly: I read. A lot. And ask questions on forums like IBLF. I used to subscribe to the bridge laws mailing list (blml), which is how I came to David's attention :P , but that became too annoying (many discussions about esoteric and unlikely hypothetical situations, few discussions about practical rulings) so I stopped. A couple of people have told me it's better now, and asked me to come back, but I haven't. Not yet, anyway.

 

Funny thing: we have a number of long time director/teachers here who don't believe players are interested in hearing about this kind of thing. It was like pulling teeth to get the one club that has a twenty minute lesson period before the game to give me a shot at explaining some of these things. Yet the players (almost all novices) told me they were glad I did it. :rolleyes: :lol: The "better" players, of course, don't pay attention to any "lessons". After all, they don't need them. :blink: :wacko:

[jillybean]

Ok Ive been reading the rules and have come across the first new rule, 99% of our players are violating "ALERTS.033 (PAGE 3)"

 

Using bidding boxes, an Alert is made by tapping an Alert card on the

table or by tapping the Alert strip on the side of the bid box. In

addition, the Alerter must say "Alert."

 

 

and

 

FRIVOLOUS PSYCHIC BIDDING

 

Any psychic action apparently inspired of malicious mischief or lack

of will to win may be interpreted as frivolous.

 

I wouldnt want to be the director making this call

[blackshoe]

Any time the TD has to divine the intent of a player's action he has a difficult call to make. It is nonetheless his job. :D

 

For what it's worth, I don't see much psyching in clubs. I don't think I've seen or heard of any frivolous psyching around here, even in tournaments.

 

On the use of the alert card, you're absolutely right, and afaics, it's darn near universal. :)

[McBruce]

Ok Ive been reading the rules and have come across the first new rule, 99% of our players are violating "ALERTS.033 (PAGE 3)"

 

Using bidding boxes, an Alert is made by tapping an Alert card on the

table or by tapping the Alert strip on the side of the bid box. In

addition, the Alerter must say "Alert."

 

 

and

 

FRIVOLOUS PSYCHIC BIDDING

 

Any psychic action apparently inspired of malicious mischief or lack

of will to win may be interpreted as frivolous.

 

I wouldnt want to be the director making this call

Most places around here have removed the alert strips and replaced them with alert cards. The alert strips were an excellent method of ensuring that the Directors play bid-box solitaire more often; they increase the number of accidental spills. And when they are in the bid-boxes, the players seem to think that a light tap while saying nothing is enough. (I remember an auction when partner and I had played six pass cards each and the opponents were finally initiating Blackwood. Partner drank a sip and brushed the alert strip in doing so, and the opponents subjected him to a barrage of questions about the pass of the 4NT response!) Alert cards are much better, at least those who think you need not say anything actually have to wave it a bit, so it is much less likely not to get noticed, and impossible to activate accidentally.

 

As for frivolous psyches, it's a pretty rare call. I was once playing N-S at the next table from a good local pair, passing boards to them. There had been a psychic bid on the first board of the round and the E-W pair got a bad result and decided they were going to complain for five minutes about the psyche, loud enough for three tables around to hear, even after it was completely clear that no rules had been broken. I think it was a fake cue bid or something that led to a slam when a different opening lead was made. At the end of the second hand (well after the round was called), the E-W pair screamed for the TD again. "Frivolous? Of course not," said the player who had psyched this time. "It was a tactical move. You saw how they reacted to the first one." ;)

[matmat]

3. Opponents of Skip Bidder

            a. All Players

            When RHO has announced a skip bid, the player following the skip

      bidder must wait for a suitable interval (about 10 seconds).  In

      waiting the player's manner must be one that suggests he is an active

      participant in the auction (the hand should be studied during the

      pause).  Any obvious display of disinterest is most improper.

            b. Experienced Players

            Experienced players are expected to maintain proper tempo whether a skip bid  is announced or not.

South: makes a skip bid (announcing or using the stop card, as appropriate)

West: makes a call in, oh, under a couple of seconds

 

South: Director!

Dir.: what's the problem

S: there was a break in tempo, West bid very quickly after my skip bid

W: that's ok, I'm an experienced player

...

 

I guess my question is, how is an experienced player defined?

[jillybean]

I think the point is experienced players should be waiting the 10 seconds, wether or not the skip bid is annonced rather than experienced players should maintain their own tempo.

[bluejak]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

 

In Scotland the use of the Stop card is mandatory. In England and Wales I thought it was mandatory, as does everyone, but checking I see that the Orange Book says that it 'should' be used. However everyone uses it and the regulations are clear that the next hand must pause for ~10 seconds whatever.

In England and Wales use of the Stop card is mandatory: our use of 'should' is merely politeness, not giving a player a choice whether to follow the rule or not.

 

Hang on a minute. I've been told by no less a luminary than Rick Beye, who at the time (a couple of years ago) was CTD of the ACBL, and by Mike Flader, who writes the "Ruling the Game" column for the ACBL Bulletin, that use of the skip bid (or stop card) procedure is optional (but if you elect not to use it, you should never use it, and if you do use it you should always use it). Has that changed?

No. It is a matter of interpretation. When the EBU says players should use the Stop card that means they may not automatically be penalised if they do not, but it does not give them an option. They are required to use it.

 

However, when the ACBL says:

 

Players should protect their rights and the opponent's by announcing, prior to making any subsequent bid that skips one or more levels of bidding.

the ACBL has interpreted the word 'should' to give players an option.

 

My feeling is that the ACBL did not intend an option when they wrote the regulation but have since weakened their position.

 

- What to do when you discover you have revoked. -Call the director.

Well, maybe.

 

Not everyone will follow this advice. The basic ethics of bridge do not require you to point out your own revokes. So long as you do not do anything positive to conceal them, like revoking again, mixing your cards quickly, and so on, you do not have to tell anyone.

 

However, many people have personal ethics that mean they will tell the opponents and the TD. Note that 'personal ethics' or 'active ethics' are optional: you have no comeback if an opponent fails to point out his own revoke.

 

FRIVOLOUS PSYCHIC BIDDING

 

    Any psychic action apparently inspired of malicious mischief or lack

    of will to win may be interpreted as frivolous.

 

I wouldnt want to be the director making this call

Extremely rare, but very easy when it happens. The pair concerned will be running at 33% and psyching about four times every five boards.

 

South: Director!

Dir.: what's the problem

S: there was a break in tempo, West bid very quickly after my skip bid

W: that's ok, I'm an experienced player

...

 

I guess my question is, how is an experienced player defined?

One who does not say he is?

 

I would hit this West with a PP. He is unnecessarily offensive in support of his lack of interest in following the rules.

 

Competent TDs have considerably more sympathy for inexperienced rule-breakers.

[jillybean]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

 

Offensive, unethical? No, simply unaware of the correct procedure.

[blackshoe]

- What to do when you discover you have revoked. -Call the director.

Well, maybe.

 

Not everyone will follow this advice. The basic ethics of bridge do not require you to point out your own revokes. So long as you do not do anything positive to conceal them, like revoking again, mixing your cards quickly, and so on, you do not have to tell anyone.

 

However, many people have personal ethics that mean they will tell the opponents and the TD. Note that 'personal ethics' or 'active ethics' are optional: you have no comeback if an opponent fails to point out his own revoke.

Good point, I should have made it myself. :D

[bluejak]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

 

Offensive, unethical? No, simply unaware of the correct procedure.

I consider this very unlikely.

 

Yes, it could be, and if a TD was asked to rule he would investigate before deciding, naturally. But my experience of this, which has happened a number of times over the years, is that people who do it are being somewhat bloody-minded, not ignorant.

[jillybean]

Funny stop card incident, I used the stop card, made my bid, LHO looks at the bid, sits back and says, "ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now".

That is not funny. It is a deliberate attempt to circumvent the intent of the regulations. At the least it is offensive: at the most it is unethical.

 

Offensive, unethical? No, simply unaware of the correct procedure.

I consider this very unlikely.

 

Yes, it could be, and if a TD was asked to rule he would investigate before deciding, naturally. But my experience of this, which has happened a number of times over the years, is that people who do it are being somewhat bloody-minded, not ignorant.

I was at the table and my discinct impression was that the player had no idea the comment was inappropriate.

I'm surprised you think this is very unlikely,given a number of players have little knowledge of the laws.

[bluejak]

Experience.

 

The one Law that people know in my clubs is 25A. Why? Because it keeps happening.

 

Similarly, there are maybe 30 Stop bids an evening, and after each one an opponent thinks [apparently]. Does the one and only person who, instead of apparently thinking, says "One, two, three ..." in a silly falsetto voice really think this is the way to do it?

[jillybean]

And is it also this bloody-mindedness why you think people bid on immediately after the stop card?

[bluejak]

No, not really. Lots of people get it wrong by bidding immediately, so they do not learn from each other that it is wrong. But treating it with disdain as mentioned earlier is rare enough to be known to be wrong.

[jillybean]

You could be right but I think your analogy between a player who says “"ok I have to wait the mandatory 10 seconds now" and the player who says "One, two, three ..." in a silly falsetto voice” is rather a stretch.

[blackshoe]

I can imagine some players in the local area here not knowing the skip bid regulation, and in particular not knowing they're not supposed to give away the fact (when it is a fact) that they don't have anything to think about. I cannot imagine one making a comment like the one Jilly reported. That said, if such a comment was made, I would try to find out why it was made, and not come down on the player concerned unless I became convinced that he knew better. Of course, if after that he does it again... :ph34r:

[Sven Pran]

Frankly I think there is something rotten with a regulation that places the burden and responsibility for measuring out the 10 seconds delay on the player that must wait instead of on the player that announces "stop".

 

The skip-bidder's LHO should have his 10 seconds for consideration without being distracted by also having to observe the timing.

 

It is the player that announced "stop" who also should announce "continue" (or words to that effect, or take back the stop card) when he considers the time is out.

 

That is how we do it in Norway, and this procedure makes the problems I notice being discussed in this thread virtually non-existing.

 

regards Sven

 

PS.: LHO is allowed to call immediately once "continue" is announced, but he is not considered creating UI if he still uses his full 10 seconds when "continue" is announced before (approximately) 10 seconds have expired. I have never experienced that particular issue to cause any problem.

[Cyberyeti]

Frankly I think there is something rotten with a regulation that places the burden and responsibility for measuring out the 10 seconds delay on the player that must wait instead of on the player that announces "stop".

 

The skip-bidder's LHO should have his 10 seconds for consideration without being distracted by also having to observe the timing.

 

It is the player that announced "stop" who also should announce "continue" (or words to that effect, or take back the stop card) when he considers the time is out.

 

That is how se do it in Norway, and this procedure makes the problems I notice being discussed in this thread virtually non-existing.

 

regards Sven

 

PS.: LHO is allowed to call immediately once "continue" is annouonced, but he is not considered creating UI if he still uses his full 10 seconds when "continue" is announced before (approximately) 10 seconds have expired.  I have never experienced that particular issue to cause any problem.

Not heard of this before, but good idea, there are some auctions like the acol 2C(big)-2D(neg)-3N(25-26 bal) where nobody in their right mind is ever going to intervene having not done so first time so being told you don't have to wait would speed things up.

 

I must admit I'm sometimes guilty of passing fast in these auctions if the stop card is removed early, but confident I've given no meaningful UI by doing so.