How do you bid this slam?

[barmar]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=saqjxxxhjxdaxxckx&e=sxhatxdkqxcaq98xx]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]Assume you're playing Standard American or 2/1 with the common gadgets in use in ACBL-land.

 

1. If you play strong jump shifts (Soloway style), do you consider West's hand appropriate? My partner didn't, he downgraded the doubleton Jack.

 

2. Assuming West only bids 1♠ (either you're not playing SJS, or he's decided it's not good enough), do you rebid 2♣ or 3♣ with the East hand? I took the low road, because I didn't like shortness in partner's suit, and my suit quality was so-so.

 

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣? How do you think the auction should proceed from there? We ended up in 3NT making 6 (a ♥ was led, and the ♣ broke, so it was easy).

[kenrexford]

General Principles thing.

 

If Opener rebids 3♣, Responder realizes that his hand is huge and bids it eventually. If Opener only rebids 2♣, don't find it.

 

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. So, it's a very tight one. So, whichever opener does -- slight overbid or slight underbid, makes all the difference, IMO.

[Phil]

I wouldn't make a SJS.

 

Agree with Ken about 2♣ and 3♣. Easy to get to slam after 3; virtually impossible after 2.

[Phil]

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. 

So, it's a very tight one.

 

?

[kenrexford]

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. 

So, it's a very tight one.

 

?

What's the "?" for???

 

"Tight" meant that describing a Jx-A10x holding back and forth, cards that up the percentages on this slam, is not usually easy in most bidding arsenals.

[quiddity]

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

2N 3♠

3N 4♣

...

 

The CK is a huge card.

[Phil]

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. 

So, it's a very tight one.

 

?

What's the "?" for???

 

"Tight" meant that describing a Jx-A10x holding back and forth, cards that up the percentages on this slam, is not usually easy in most bidding arsenals.

I don't the presence of the heart J/10 matter much Ken.

[kenrexford]

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. 

So, it's a very tight one.

 

?

What's the "?" for???

 

"Tight" meant that describing a Jx-A10x holding back and forth, cards that up the percentages on this slam, is not usually easy in most bidding arsenals.

I don't the presence of the heart J/10 matter much Ken.

With those hearts, with a heart lead, you don't need spades working.

[cherdanno]

With those hearts, with a heart lead, you don't need spades working.

Neither do you need the spades working if it was Axx opposite xx in hearts - just hearts not 6-2.

[Fluffy]

if Ken doesn't play that

 

1♣-1♠

2♣-2♦

3♥

 

shows this hand then I guess there is no way to get over 3NT on this deal (maybe 4 spades if you judge it that way, but not slam) if you start with 1♣-1♠-2♣.

 

 

You need a 3 club rebid, and everything is going smothly 4♣-4♦-4♠-4NT...

 

After the downgrade, at least me its finding it impossible.

[Mbodell]

I personally bid 1♠ with this playing SJS, but it is very close to 2♠. I personally rebid 3♣ with this, but it is somewhat close to 2♣. So for me the auction would probably be:

 

1♣-1♠

3♣-3♠

3nt-4♣

4♦-4♠ (kc c; 3/0)

5♦-6♣ (k ask; 0)

[barmar]

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

2N 3♠

3N 4♣

...

 

The CK is a huge card.

Isn't 2NT an underbid in that auction? 2♦ can be bid on as little as 11 HCP, and 2NT can be passed with that, but I have enough to go to game opposite that. So I think I would have to bid 3NT. That's where responder would have a problem: should he pass, show his 6th ♠ or ♣Kx?

 

I think if he's going to bid on, he should show the ♣. Opener might have made a delayed ♠ raise on the previous round with Kx there, or could do it now after 4♣.

[barmar]

Just to muddy things further, the actual auction we had was:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 3♠

 

My partner, who is usually much more reliable than this, has gotten it into his head that 3♠ is forcing, but I'm certain it's only invitational. I think that may have been true 40 years ago, but not these days. But I can't find any concrete documentation of this. None of the bridge bidding web sites I could find seem to cover this basic auction, and the books in my library are all for intermediate/advanced players, so they don't cover much of Bridge Bidding 101.

 

Conversely, he was also under the impression that

 

1♣ 1♠

3♣ 3♠

 

is passable. As I understand it, once opener jump rebids, the only way to stop short of 3NT is for responder to pass.

 

I feel really dumb asking about this here rather than the B/I forum, but can someone tell me I'm not crazy?

[gwnn]

you're not crazy.

[Cascade]

What he said

[ONEferBRID]

You need to have a bid to start a forcing sequence after opener rebids his minor at the 2-level. That way other bids are non-forcing ( analogous to NMF after Opener rebids 1NT for minimum balanced hands).

 

One method is "cheapest new suit forcing" and "may be artificial".

 

1C - 1S

2C - 2D!

2NT* - 3S ... and now we are in a GF

because the invitational sequence is the jump to 3S over 2C.

etc...

( this is the same as in quiddity's post )

_____________________

*2NT denies 3 cards Sp ( 2S), denies 4 cards Hts(2H), denies 4 cards Diam(3D)

but shows stop(s) in the other Major( Hts).... as in NMF.

 

The simple rule, as in NMF, applies here: jumps are invitational;

GF auctions start with "cheapest new suit forcing".

_____________________

 

But as has been pointed out, the K x of Cl is huge:

1C - 1S

2C - 2D!

2NT - 3C ... now a GF auction because 3C or 4C over 2C would be invitational;

however, I would want H x x to make this bid;

I would stick with the GF 3S auction above.

[Cascade]

General Principles thing.

 

If Opener rebids 3♣, Responder realizes that his hand is huge and bids it eventually. If Opener only rebids 2♣, don't find it.

 

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected. So, it's a very tight one. So, whichever opener does -- slight overbid or slight underbid, makes all the difference, IMO.

Isn't slam just a little better than 3=2 clubs. If you discover clubs are 4=1 you have some chance of bringing in the spades in time.

[skjaeran]

Ia a recent partnership we'd start:

1♣ - 1♥

2♣ - 2♥

2NT

 

Both heart bids are transfers, 2NT shows this shape (or similar) and strength. If responder now makes a slam try in clubs (I think he should), we'd reach 6♣.

[Fluffy]

To Barmar: What you play is the most normal approach, specially the principle of pass 3♣ or play game.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 yes, the hand is surely good enough, the doubleton jack is

just an add. plus

#2 3C, partially a matter of style, but the hand is certainly is

not a min opener and worth the aquivalent of a 15-17NT

#3 sure, if both players know each other well, that responder

has to take into account, that 2C may still be based on such

a hand.

A posible auction

1C - 1S

2C - 2D (1)

3NT (2) - Pass (3)

 

(1) 3rd suit forcing, asking for furtherdescription, at least inv. strength

(2) max, diamond stopper, no 3 card spade suit, no 4 card heart suit,

5 clubs and 4 diamonds are still possible

(3) 4C is an option, if 5clubs and 4 diamonds are not possible anymore

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

Just to muddy things further, the actual auction we had was:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 3♠

 

My partner, who is usually much more reliable than this, has gotten it into his head that 3♠ is forcing, but I'm certain it's only invitational.  I think that may have been true 40 years ago, but not these days.  But I can't find any concrete documentation of this.  None of the bridge bidding web sites I could find seem to cover this basic auction, and the books in my library are all for intermediate/advanced players, so they don't cover much of Bridge Bidding 101.

 

Conversely, he was also under the impression that

 

1♣ 1♠

3♣ 3♠

 

is passable.  As I understand it, once opener jump rebids, the only way to stop short of 3NT is for responder to pass.

 

I feel really dumb asking about this here rather than the B/I forum, but can someone tell me I'm not crazy?

#1 it depends, if you happen to play WJS, than 3S is forcing, in the context of SJS 3S is inv.

#2 forcing

[kenrexford]

General Principles thing.

 

If Opener rebids 3♣, Responder realizes that his hand is huge and bids it eventually.  If Opener only rebids 2♣, don't find it.

 

The slam turns on a 3-2 clubs split, with the heart 10 and the Jx of hearts being more important for slam than expected.  So, it's a very tight one.  So, whichever opener does -- slight overbid or slight underbid, makes all the difference, IMO.

Isn't slam just a little better than 3=2 clubs. If you discover clubs are 4=1 you have some chance of bringing in the spades in time.

true

[Winstonm]

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

2N 3♠

3N 4♣

...

 

The CK is a huge card.

I think you are smoking too much crack. East would bid the same way with: x, Axx, KQx, Q9xxxx.

 

Why would you want to move past 3N now?

[BFone]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=saqjxxxhjxdaxxckx&e=sxhatxdkqxcaq98xx]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]Assume you're playing Standard American or 2/1 with the common gadgets in use in ACBL-land.

 

1. If you play strong jump shifts (Soloway style), do you consider West's hand appropriate? My partner didn't, he downgraded the doubleton Jack.

 

2. Assuming West only bids 1♠ (either you're not playing SJS, or he's decided it's not good enough), do you rebid 2♣ or 3♣ with the East hand? I took the low road, because I didn't like shortness in partner's suit, and my suit quality was so-so.

 

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣? How do you think the auction should proceed from there? We ended up in 3NT making 6 (a ♥ was led, and the ♣ broke, so it was easy).

1♣ -1♠,

2♣ -2♦ (New Minor suit Force),

2♥(force to show good hand, partner already showed no 4 cards H) - 3♣(Jx is minimum in expert bidding),

3♦(further force to show better hand) - 3S♠ (show slam interests)

3NT (sign-off) - 4♠ (further slam interests plus good ♠ suit)

4NT (waiting, no ♠ fit) - 5♣ (showed enough, but not pass 4NT for slam hope)

6♣ (gamble because 4NT was not passed)

[quiddity]

Do you think the slam can be found if the auction starts 1♣-1♠-2♣?

I would start the same way, and I think the slam can be found:

 

1♣ 1♠

2♣ 2♦

2N 3♠

3N 4♣

...

 

The CK is a huge card.

Isn't 2NT an underbid in that auction?

You may be right. I was playing a set of responses in which a jump to 3N showed a stopper with 4 cards in the 3rd suit, and all other hands with stoppers were shown with 2NT. This makes it impossible for the 11 point hand to stop in 2N.

 

I don't know how costly that is. With a rebiddable minor and all suits stopped, maybe it's not such a disaster to get to some 23 and 24-point 3NTs; and meanwhile it is clear that the jump to 3N can lead to some awkward guesses.