Next action? Not playing 2/1 GF

[shyams]

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=sk64haqj963d987cj]133|100|Scoring: MP

Playing with a pickup partner in the club. We play 5-card majors, 15-17 NT (something like SAYC) and 2/1 is NOT GF.

As dealer, I opened this hand with 1H (please feel free to comment)

South North

1H - 2C

2H - 2S

3S - 4C

???

[/hv]

[jillybean]

4♠, (edited) 4♣ is a cue bid in ♠ or 6+ ♣'s? What ever it is it is forcing, 2♠ set the gf.

 

If 4♣ is a cue I should show partner my ♥A but in a pick up partnership and with this hand, Im happy to bid 4♠.

 

I like your 1♥ opening.

[TylerE]

Abstain. Hate 3♠. I would bid 3♦ instead so we get to 3N when it's right.

[vuroth]

4♥ now, showing my ace. Obviously, earlier questions about whether I should make a courtesy control showing bid below game, or limit my hand and just bid game (4♠), remain.

 

I don't like 1♥. This hand is fundamentally no different than:

 

[hv=s=sk64haqj963d987c2]133|100|[/hv]

 

...which not only fails the rule of 20, but seems like a max but reasonable 2♥ bid to me.

 

That's just my intermediate opinion, though.

[bid_em_up]

This hand is fundamentally no different than:

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ K64 ♥ AQJ963 ♦ 987 ♣ 2

You got that right!! In fact, it's exactly the same!! :)

 

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

[655321]

I like 1♥. The hand will play well in spades if partner has spades, and opening 2♥ is likely to lose a spade fit.

 

I don't like 3♠, and would have bid 3♥ instead. Partner will expect 4 cards for the spade raise - if we did have 4 spades, we could not rebid 2♠ without showing extra values.

[jillybean]

This hand is fundamentally no different than:

 

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> Unknown </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> K64 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> AQJ963 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> 987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> 2 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

You got that right!! In fact, it's exactly the same!! :lol:

 

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

Look closer

[Phil]

Agree with 4♥, and I don't like 3♠.

 

In case you are wondering, pass is not a consideration.

[bid_em_up]

You got that right!!  In fact, it's exactly the same!!    :lol:

 

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

Look closer

Oh.

 

I stopped looking at singleton jacks a long time ago, which explains why I think it's the same!

 

(I swear I looked at the hand 3-4 times initially trying to see the difference, even after you said look closer, it still took me another 2-3 attempts before I finally recognized the difference, stiff J, stiff 2, they all look the same to me!)

[jillybean]

(I swear I looked at the hand 3-4 times initially trying to see the difference, even after you said look closer, it still took me another 2-3 attempts before I finally recognized the difference, stiff J, stiff 2, they all look the same to me!)

Good point :lol:

[aguahombre]

Max, but reasonable 2H opening? You must be old like me. today, people think it is more helpful to partner to open 2H with KX JXXXXX QXX AX (MAX).

[Cascade]

Hate 3♠. It is almost never right to raise partner's second suit immediately with only three-card support.

 

3♥ was a fine alternative emphasising the good six-card suit.

 

Now after I have mislead partner into thinking that we have a spade fit my choices are to cooperate with 4♥ or to further mislead with 4♠ denying a heart control. I think I have to bid 4♥.

[neilkaz]

Hate 3♠. It is almost never right to raise partner's second suit immediately with only three-card support.

 

3♥ was a fine alternative emphasising the good six-card suit.

 

Now after I have mislead partner into thinking that we have a spade fit my choices are to cooperate with 4♥ or to further mislead with 4♠ denying a heart control. I think I have to bid 4♥.

Agreed and I feel a train wreck coming on.

 

HATE 3♠ !!

 

As for the opening..take your choice between 1♥ and 2♥ noting your are vul.

 

For me, playing RONF I can still may get to ♠ after opening 2♥ as PD can bid them with a sound opening hand and decent 5 card suit.

 

However, if your style is aggressive weak 2's. PD isn't likely to believe that you have this good of a hand so just open 1♥.

[jillybean]

Youre right. 3♠ isn't good, ignore my answer.

[vuroth]

I like 1♥.  The hand will play well in spades if partner has spades, and opening 2♥ is likely to lose a spade fit.

Would it be fairer to say that:

 

[hv=v=b&s=skxhaqjxxxdxxxcxx]133|100|[/hv]

 

Is a better maximum 2♥ open? I'll admit the 3631 shape had me a little worried.

 

I stopped looking at singleton jacks a long time ago, which explains why I think it's the same!

 

Sorry, was just trying to make a point that I think counting the club for 1HCP is pretty bad.

[kenrexford]

This is a 2♥ opening. So, I dislike 1♥. 1♥...2♥ is a stronger bid than 2♥ initially.

 

2♥ is boxed.

 

3♠ is bizarre. It shows four-card support. 2♠ by Opener would have been a reverse, so 3♠ now says I have four spades and less than a reverse.

 

After 4♣, clearly a cue, bid 4♠ and pray. Anything else encourages partner, who thinks you have four spades and actually opening strength, when you have neither, plus slam interest on top of that.

[nigel_k]

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

 

Definitely 3♥ instead of 3♠. You could still have four spades here and now partner is looking for slam in a 4-3 when you have a minimum and no fit. I wouldn't bid 3♦ either as your hand is mainly hearts and 3♦ will encourage partner to bid 3NT on too many hands where 4♥ is better. If he bids 3NT over 3♥ then we are happy.

 

4♥ is a cue bid now so all you can do is bid 4♠ and hope partner passes and is able to make it.

[kenrexford]

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

[vuroth]

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

I have to admit, I'm tempted to start a new thread asking if I should be spanking weak 2 openers a lot more often.

[aguahombre]

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

I have to admit, I'm tempted to start a new thread asking if I should be spanking weak 2 openers a lot more often.

yup

[gwnn]

Agree with 655 and nigel.

[shyams]

The full hand: N/S make 8 tricks in H, 9 tricks in S, 10 tricks in C; E/W make 7 tricks in NT, 8 tricks in D.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saq32h5dt2ckqt974&w=sjt85hk874dq6ca53&e=s97ht2dakj543c862&s=sk64haqj963d987cj]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

At the table, I felt partner's 2S bid was an overbid and her correct action was either passing 2H or bidding 3C (I prefer the latter). In any case, we had blundered into the right partial (3S) till partner bid 4C

 

Feel free to criticize the bidding. I think a weak 2H is actually appealing with the South hand...

[Cascade]

3♣ would be wrong.

 

If this hand is not good enough for 2♠ then you need to start with 1♠ otherwise you will miss out completely when you really do have a spade fit.

 

I think the hand is easily good enough for 2♠ with six clubs and four spades. I might even bid this way if it was unconditionally Game Forcing although I don't usually play that way.

[cherdanno]

The full hand: N/S make 8 tricks in H, 9 tricks in S, 10 tricks in C; E/W make 7 tricks in NT, 8 tricks in D.

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=saq32h5dt2ckqt974&w=sjt85hk874dq6ca53&e=s97ht2dakj543c862&s=sk64haqj963d987cj]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

At the table, I felt partner's 2S bid was an overbid and her correct action was either passing 2H or bidding 3C (I prefer the latter). In any case, we had blundered into the right partial (3S) till partner bid 4C

 

Feel free to criticize the bidding. I think a weak 2H is actually appealing with the South hand...

Hi shyams,

 

if you play "something like SAYC" (or standard American), then many of the bids are more forcing than you seem to be aware of.

 

2♣ promises a rebid. 2♥ does not deny extra strength, so responder cannot pass this.

2♠ by responder shows extra strength and is a game force. Rebidding 3♣ is unreasonable, but I think the hand is just about worth a game force, and I do not want to risk missing game nor missing a spade fit.

 

Raising 2♠ to 3♠ shows 4 spades - a good general guideline is "never raise partner's second suit with less than 4 trumps". Also, 2♥ has not shown 6 hearts yet, so the best rebid (IMO) is 3♥. If partner has 5 spades, or 4 really good ones and no diamond stopper, he can still bid 3♠ over that.

 

So yes I would get to 4♥ with these two hands (responder has no choice over 3♥ but to raise) - sometimes you get too high when both partners are minimum for their actions.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1H is fine, while 2H is certainly an option, opening 1H

is safer than opening 2H playing with a stranger.

 

3S is just ...., 3H is clearly the bid to make, you have a

6 carder, show it, partner does not know this, it does

not even matter, if 3H can be passed or not, because

you dont care given that you happen to hold a dead min.

for your opening bid.

 

Over 4C you have to bid 4H, a cue for spades, denying a

diamond cue, you decided that te 3 card support was enough

to suggest playing spades, there is nothing in the auction to

suggest, that you have to change your mind.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I have had a look at the complete deal, I would have bid

2S myself, but than 2S i not gf for me, but as you see on my

above remarks, it does not matter, you have a clear cut 3H bid,

that you can only make 8 heart tricks does not say any thing,

and claiming that you reached the right partial with 3S, a 4-3

fit is just resulting.