1C/1D redundancy with 5-card majors

[iscbrooks]

Considering the dozens of artificial bidding conventions out there, imagine my frustration where I could not find 1 variation which differentiates between 1♣ and 1♦. I've long though it silly that the only difference between the two bids is that you bid the one that's "better". Considering you can open with either with three, that's not very helpful. I'm quite certain there are more efficient things to do with two bids that mean the same. If any of you have know/use any 1♣/1♦ variations, please post them.

[Free]

I don't know for sure what you mean, but I usually play something called "longer minor". It means you bid your longest, and when equal in length you bid your best when weak, and your worst when strong.

[mikestar]

Never used it, but I've heard of a method where 1C promises a four-card major and 1D denies one.

[MickyB]

If you differentiate between 1♣ and 1♦ openings, it isn't a convention, it's a different system. There are many systems out there - the obvious one is Short Club, which puts some or all of the balanced hands from 1♦ into 1♣, and sometimes even the 4-4-4-1 shape. There are strong clubs, where all hands of about 16+points are opened 1♣. And there is Polish Club, where 1♣ is 12-14 bal, 15-17 unbal priamary ♣ or 18+any, and the 2♣ opener is natural, 5+♣, 11-14. Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?

 

I wouldn't write off Better Minor. 1♦ is nearly always 4+ cards, and 1♣ normally is. It can help with competitive bidding and hand evaluation to know that partner will have some length in his suit. You expect Short Club to lose out slightly when you open 1♣ and gain when you open 1♦, but 1♣ will come up nearly three times as often as 1♦.

 

BTW, what is the point of bidding your weaker minor when you are strong, Free?

[Free]

Hmmm, I seem to forgotten it :) I think when you open 1m from a 3-card, partner might have a big chance of playing in a Major game, so they'll have to lead through your hand. It's more psychological imo B) When weak, opps might have a chance to compete, so then you need your p to lead the best minor in some cases...

[Flame]

I have posted about this same problem here in the forum more then once, i totally agree with you. i think this problem is the main motivation for most known systems.

Some examples of ways for a better use.

first way is to open 1d with four card and 1c with a minimum of 2 cards.

this mean you open 1c with 4432.

second way is to play a kind of polish club, this can mean many things, since we are talking about clubs and diamonds here, in systems like strefa 1d is atleast 4 card diamond unbalanced, this mean that even 4342 will open 1c and not 1d.

other conventional use are the strong clubs (precision moscito, blue club etc...)

there are many other systems which are less common but most do something with this 1c/1d duplication, i play midmac which 1c = i got 4 card major, 1d= i dont have 4 card major (lately a french system called WEB which have the same 1c/1d as midmac is gaining popularity)

[mishovnbg]

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.

Misho

[mikestar]

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.

Misho

This method has some merit in clarifying your balanced hand ranges. One example of how this might be used:

 

1N = 10-12 balanced

1D, rebid minumum NT = 13-15 balanced

1C, rebid minumum NT = 16-18 balanced

1D, rebid jump NT = 19-20 balanced

1C, rebid jump NT = 21-22 balanced

 

This leaves 2N free for use in your preemptive system. 23+ balanced start with 2C.

 

Other schemes are possible.

 

The down side of this is that either minor might be opened on a doubleton.

[helene_t]

If you play 1♦ as NF natural-or-weak-balanced, it is not so bad if you end up in 1♦ in a 2-0 fit, since the opps will have the majority of the strength, then. 1♣ should always be forcing, since there are plenty of respond schemes available (transfers, 1♦ negative). Disadvantage: partner can't support your minor suit directly, and doesn't know which minor suit to lead.

 

Alternatively: play 1♣ as promissing a 4-card in either major unless extra values, and 1♦ as denying 4-card major unless extra values. Then, 1♦ will almost always be a real suit, and you always have a rebid if you open 1♣ and partner responds 1♦ (negative).

 

Or play Borring Club: 1♣ is always ballanced, any strength. This means that the "reverse" rebids after a 1♣ opening are available to show specific strength, and the 1NT and/or 2♣-openings are available for hands with club length. In this system, 1♦ could be natural, as in Polish Club, or nebulous, as in Precission.

[luke warm]

Can also play 1♣/1♦: nat or some range of NT.

Misho

This method has some merit in clarifying your balanced hand ranges. One example of how this might be used:

 

1N = 10-12 balanced

1D, rebid minumum NT = 13-15 balanced

1C, rebid minumum NT = 16-18 balanced

1D, rebid jump NT = 19-20 balanced

1C, rebid jump NT = 21-22 balanced

 

This leaves 2N free for use in your preemptive system. 23+ balanced start with 2C.

 

Other schemes are possible.

 

The down side of this is that either minor might be opened on a doubleton.

this is interesting... i think i like it... feel free to post more on it B) can i assume the major structure follows the same path, given the nt rebids?

[mikestar]

this is interesting... i think i like it... feel free to post more on it B) can i assume the major structure follows the same path, given the nt rebids?

 

This structure has the usual disadvantages of the mini NT -- more NT and major suit contracts will be wrongsided. As against that, your NT sequences are more accurate and you will find major suit fits the field misses.

 

The first question in desinging a system around this structure is how to open 5M-3-3-2 hands. For discussion I will assume the more radical but more consistent concept that opens these hands with the minor appropriate for the NT range.

 

So 1 of a major is guaranteed to have six cards or a side suit--this really helps 1N forcing auctions.

 

1 of a minor may only be a doubleton--but if the rebid is anything other than NT or a major suit raise, 4 cards in the minor are guaranteed and 5 are likely.

 

After the common sequence 1m-1M opener with a balanced hand will raise the major with 4 (or 5) card support and rebid NT otherwise. A new suit or a rebid of the minor is natural and promises an unbalanced hand.

 

 

After a NT rebid we can take advantage of the major suit pattern being partially known.

 

After 1D-1S-1N (13-15):

 

2C = modifed Puppet Stayman, asks for 5 hearts.

..2D = no

....2H = asks for 3 spades

..2H = yes

2D = modified Jacoby, may be only 4 hearts, 5+ spades

..2H = 4-5 hearts or 2-3 majors

..2S = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts

2H = modified Jacoby, 5+ spades, < 4 hearts

2S/2N = minor suit transfer

 

More sequences later.

[iscbrooks]

I've heard of a method where 1C promises a four-card major and 1D denies one.

I like that idea. It makes it easier to find a 4-4 major fit, one of the faults of 5-card majors.

[luke warm]

The first question in desinging a system around this structure is how to open 5M-3-3-2 hands.  For discussion I will assume the more radical but more consistent concept that opens these hands with the minor appropriate for the NT range.

 

After 1D-1S-1N (13-15):

 

2C = modifed Puppet Stayman, asks for 5 hearts.

..2D = no

....2H = asks for 3 spades

..2H = yes

2D = modified Jacoby, may be only 4 hearts, 5+ spades

..2H = 4-5 hearts or 2-3 majors

..2S = 3 spades, 2-3 hearts

2H = modified Jacoby, 5+ spades, < 4 hearts 

2S/2N = minor suit transfer 

at the moment i open 5332 hands 1nt if within 10-13, which means if i open 1M then rebid anything other than some number of nt, i have either 14+ or an unbalanced hand... iow, i try to resolve the rebid problems much as i would playing a strong nt, by opening 1nt when i can

 

i don't see a problem with this, assuming i'd like to keep doing it... i also don't see any inherent problem with changing 1m/any/1nt from 13-15 to 14-16, do you?

 

i like the 1d/1s/1n/2c thing, but do you think this is superior to 'normal' 2 way checkback, where 2c is invitational and 2d is gf?

[the hog]

Play transfer checkback. This is a far superior method to normal and to 2 way checkback, even if I do say so myself.

 

A nice 1C/1D structure is what a number of Oz experts play.

1C 1?

1N = 17-19 bal

 

1D 1?

1N = 12-14 bal, (or 11-13)

 

This leaves your 1N opening at 15-17 (14-16)

[mikestar]

Play transfer checkback. This is a far superior method to normal and to 2 way checkback, even if I do say so myself.

I'm working some of this out as I go along. I'd love to hear details about transfer checkback.

[the hog]

We play transfer checkback.

After 1C 1? 1N -

 

2C is a puppet to 2D, which may be made with

a weak hand wishing to sign off in D

an invitational hand with a 5 card Major

an invitational hand with a 4 card Major and a 5+m

a GF balanced hand

 

Other bids apart from 2C are transfers.

 

 

These occur in the following sequences:

 

1C 1M

1N

 

1C 1H

1S

 

1D 1M

1NT

 

1D 1H

1S

 

 

Note that when opener rebids 1N his hand is limited to 12-15 points. Responder is in charge of the auction. Opener MUST rebid 2D after 2C.

 

When opener rebids 1S, (e.g. 1C 1H 1S), he will usually have 12-15 points, however he MAY have more e.g. 16-17 with 5+C and 4S, or a balanced 17-23 possibly including a 5 card S suit. In these cases he cannot rebid 2D after the 2C puppet as there is too great a danger that responder will pass. He must make some other bid – see below.

 

 

Sequences

 

1C 1S

1NT 2C

2D P Weak with 4S and long D

2H Invit with 5S/4H

2S Invit with 5S

2N Slam ambitions, flat 4333 or 4432 with any other 4 card suit

3C GF natural fragment 5143 shape exactly

 

1C 1S

1NT 2C

2D 2N

3C Relay asking for other 4 card suit

Now 3D = D,3H = H,3S = C

Now

Raises of the minor to the 4 level are minorwood

3N is a sign off, 4N is quantitative

4C is RKCB in H NB Opener CANNOT HAVE 4S

 

 

1C 1S

1NT 2D Transfer to H. Weak or GF

2H Transfer to S, weak or I suited GF

2S Invit to 3N OR sign off in C, (as over 1N opening). Or GF with

5M & 5C – see below

2N GF transfer to C

3C/D/H Natural invitational, 5/5

 

 

1C 1S

1NT 2D Transfer to H. Weak or GF

2H Opener accepts t/f, therefore must have 4H

Now 3H = GF, inviting cues, others are natural fragments

2S Opener has <4 H, but at least 2S

Now 2N = GF NT oriented hand

3C/D are GF natural fragments

3H = 5/5 GF

3S = 6 very good S GF

 

 

1C 1S

1NT 2S Inv in NT, or weak with C, or GF with 5M & 5C

2N Min

3C Max

 

1C 1S

1NT 2S

2N 3C Weak with C

3D/H GF with 5M and singleton in this suit

3S 6M and 5C

 

 

 

 

 

General Rules In All Sequences:

 

• 2S is equivalent to 2S over 1NT opening – invitational to 3N or sign off in C

• To transfer and then bid again is a game force, with the exception of invitational hands which go via 2C

• 2D/H/NT are transfers and could be weak OR GF. GF shows the fragment on the next round

• level new suit is natural invitational 5/5

• 2C is either a puppet to 2D, (weak or GF, both natural), or any unbalanced invitational hand

[mikestar]

Thanks, Ron.

[1eyedjack]

We play transfer checkback.

After 1C 1? 1N -

 

2C is a puppet to 2D, which may be made with

a weak hand wishing to sign off in D

an invitational hand with a 5 card Major

an invitational hand with a 4 card Major and a 5+m

a GF balanced hand

Pard and I made up something similar:

 

2C = a puppet to 2D, to sign out in D or to sign out in S (follow up with 2H puppet to 2S then pass) or GF with at least 5 in responder's first bid suit (but not 5-5).

2D = any invitational hand, or any GF hand with no interest in anything other than opener's major suit length in order to determine the correct game, or a balanced slam try.

2H = weak and natural

2S+ = GF puppets where responder has 5-5 or better, or fewer than 5 in first bid suit (except that 2N puppet to 3C may be weak and to play in 3C).

 

Essentially, if responder wishes to "captain" the auction he goes through 2D. If responder wishes to describe his hand (typically preferable if shapely GF) then he goes through the puppets.

[bhtf]

;) hello all

 

1C-1M-1NT-2C puppet-2D-Pass is an elegant way to play comfortably

2D with 5-4 D-M, but ..... but my oponents never let me in this contract !

then i take another ways. a little 1C-1S-1NT exposure.

 

2C relay limit or more

for : 2S = H4 maxi (FG then), 2H = H4 mini, 2D others. then responder

2H : 55 major limit

2S : S5 limit

Pass on 2H : S5 & H4 limit (55 limit : 3D tech, see [*], or 4H !)

others : forcings game or more

 

2D relay weak or strong

for : 2H by 4, 2S others. Responder :

Pass on 2H : S5 & H4, weak

Pass on 2S, 2S on 2H : S5 weak

2NT transf : S5+ & C4+ very strong, 55+ or 64+

3C transf : S5+ & D4+, same

3D transf : S5+ & H5+, game (id slam : 2C then 3D)

3H transf : S6+, slam (3S discourage, others controls)

3S (H), 4m : void with S6+ slam

3NT : S5 game

4H on 2H : 54 major, game.

 

2H : 55+ major weak

 

2S limit, for : 2NT min, others maxs. Then responder :

Pass or 3m 5+ on 2NT : stops

others naturals, 4C gerber if you like (slam on weight)

 

2NT puppet for 3C, minors six+ weak or slamish. Then :

Pass, 3D : minor 6+, weak

3H©, 3S(D) : minor 6+, slam

4C, 4D : idem, RKCB with mini (first step)/ maxi (others steps)

 

3C, 3D : good six cards minor, limit for 3NT

 

3H (!) : AKQxxx no side entry, C or D, only four S.

 

3S : AKQ in S, no side entry.

 

[*] 1C-1S-1NT-2C, forcings walks of responder :

2NT FG relay [**]

3C FG with void/single away from C

3D = H 4+ fit limit or slam, 55+ majors slam

3H = S 5 slam

3S FG with void/single in C, no S5 garanty

 

[**] 2NT relay for :

3T = S/2 , 3D = H/2, 3H = 4333, 3S = D/2, 3N = C/2

(same after 1N-2C-2?-2N, 1m-1M-1N-2C-2?-2N, etc.)

1C-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C 2335

3D 3235

3H 3334

3S 3325

3N 2245 (if imposs bid : 5422)

2M-2N- 3C 2434

3D 2425 (imposs bid)

3H 3433

3S 3424

 

and some others if you want :

 

1C-1H-1N-2C- 2M-2N- 3C 4225

3D-3H- 3S 4234

3N 4243 [note]

3H 4333

3S 4324

3N 4342 [note]

 

[note] 1D-1H-1S is 54+ or 4144, 1D-1H-1N deny S4. then 4243 & 4342 open 1C.

 

1D-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2344

3S 2353

3D-3H- 3S 3244

3N 3253

3H 3343

3S 2254

3N 3352

2M-2N- 3C 2443

3D 2452

3N 3442

 

1H-1S-1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C 2533

3D 2542

3H 2524

3S 3523

3N 3532

 

1N-2C- 2D-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2335

3S 2353

3N 2344

3D-3H- 3S 3235

3N 3253

4C 3244

3H-3S- 3N 3334

4C 3343

3S 3325

3N 3352

2H-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 2434

3S 2443

3D-3H- 3S 2425

3N 2452

3H 3433

3S 3424

3N 3442

2S-2N- 3C-3D- 3H 4234

3S 4243

3D-3H- 3S 4225

3N 4252

3H 4333

3S 4324

3N 4342

[luke warm]

would it be possible for you to post 2 or 3 hands that follow the bidding you suggest? i'd like to look at them and compare the bidding to what i now normally do... thx

[1eyedjack]

1C-1M-1NT-2C puppet-2D-Pass is an elegant way to play comfortably

2D with 5-4 D-M, but ..... but my oponents never let me in this contract !

That (ability to play in 2D) is not the reason for using 2C as a puppet to 2D ... it is simply a fringe benefit that you can take advantage of. The principal reason for the method is to increase the number of hands that you can describe in total.

 

In fact there are some bad hands for the system, namely weak 2-suiters ... unless one of your suits is Hearts (in my method) you have to pick a suit without giving opener the choice. It is a price I am prepared to pay for the other benefits.

 

The rest of your post looked interesting, but lost something in the translation, I feel. Anyway, I did not understand much of it. Sorry.

[Free]

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy ;)

[1eyedjack]

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy ;)

The declaration of most denominations (3 of the 5 anyway, and the 3 most likely, at that) has already been established by the 1N rebid. I don't see this as an issue, in terms of the justification of transfers. The other benefits of transfers/puppets remain unchanged.

 

I agree that 2♦ as GF stayman does not sound sensible. Hence I include the invitational hands as well in there.

[luke warm]

I don't really like the 2♦ GF stayman and 2♣ puppet for 2♦, because you can do as much with a modified extended stayman, and you keep transfers to 'rightside' the contract. Playing 2♦ vs Garbage Stayman, I chose Garbage Stayman. But with 2♦GF stayman you can ofcourse rightside the contract more (letting the asker play), I've discussed this already with Jimmy ;)

and if you noticed, i implemented some of your suggestions :)

 

i really do like 2♦ as gf over weak/mini nt, but i think we're talking about 2♦ as gf part of 2 way ckback... i haven't yet seen any convincing arguments against using it, or in using 2♣ as a way to garbage OR invite

[bhtf]

agree w you all, that last postage was not in good health ! lol

hoping more readable

 

1C-1S-1NT

2C inv or more check back, only on H 4 investigation, 3 steps

2D weak or strong check back, only on H 4, 2 steps

2H : 55 M, weak

2S inv relay (or slam) for 2N min/ others max.

2N-3C : min 6+, weak or slam.

3m : good six cards, inv

3H : AKQxxx in C or D

3S : AKQxxx in S

 

1) weaks hands

Pass : no M 5, no m 6.

2H............................. 55 majors

2D-2H(H 4)-Pass......... 54 majors

2D-2H(H 4)-2S............ S 5+ no H 4

2D-2S-Pass................ S 5+ with or no H 4

2N-3C-Pass or 3D....... C 6+, D 6+, S 4

 

2) invitationals hands (limits in my words)

3S : AKQxxx no side entry

3H : AKQxxx minor no side entry. if 3S relay : 3N = C, 4C = D

3m : good six cards minor (HHxxxx) and something else by force.

2S : no M 5. Then 2N mini/ others maxi (3N in fact in 90% appening)

2S-2N-2m : bads 6+ (5 perhaps) to not play in 2NT

2C with S 5+, and H 4+ or not. 2S = H 4 max, 2H = H 4 min, 2D others.

2C-2S FG. Resp is able to use strongs bids after 2C (2N & more)

2C-2S-4H for play. 2C-2S-4D transf for 4H.

2C-2D-2H : 55 major inv. 2C-2D-2S : S 5+ inv.

2C-2H-Pass : 54 major. 2C-2H-2S : S 5+ no H 4

2C-2H-3D : H 4+ fit inv or slamish. op then : 3H mini/3S maxi.

w 55+ major inv, responder on 2C-2H can bid 3D or (reds) go directly to 4H.

 

3) game and more hands

3N, 4S : directs games.

2N-3C-3H ©, 2N-3C-3S (D) : min 6+ slamish, for ctrls (cues for slam)

2N-3C-4C ©, 2N-3C-4D (D) : min 6+ slamish, RKCB w first step minimum.

[1C-1S with S 4 and D 6+ slam is not very usual ! but poss in this sys]

2S and then 4C is gerber. 4N quantitative is not in the sys.

2D-2H-4H : 54 or 55 majors, game.

2D-2H-3N : S 5 no H 4, game

2D-2S-3N : S 5 w/no H4, game

2D-2S-3D : S 5 & H 5, game

2D-2x-2N : S 5+ & C 4+, slam

2D-2x-3C : S 5+ & D 4+, slam

2D-2x-3H : S 6+, slam

2D-2x-3S(H), 4C, 4D : local void with S 6+, slam

2C then 2N and more.

 

4) 2C and strongs bids

3N, 4H, 4S : for play

3S : void/single in C, game or more

3H : S 5, slam

3D : H 4+ fit inv or slam, if op no H 4 : 55+ major slam.

3C : void/single other than C, game or more

2N : shape relay, game or more

 

5) 2N relay for shortage : helping in choice of game (avoid 3NT

with common shortness for minor game or moysian major one)

and eventual slam in minor. after 4C & 4D are fixing minor trump

and RKCB with first step mini (for minor or NT slam)

the machinery is all in first opener response of is shortness :

3C = short S, 3D = short H, 3H = 4333, 3S = short D, 3N = short C.

an ugly bid (short in H 4 for exemple) = exotic shape 5422.

 

1C-1S-1N-2C-2D-2N-3C : 2335

...............................3D : 3235

...............................3H : 3334

...............................3S : 3325

...............................3N : 2245 (ugly)

1C-1S-1N-2C-2M-2N-3C : 2434

...............................3D : 2425 (ugly)

...............................3H : 3433

...............................3S : 3424

...............................3N : ----- (ugly)