Now what?

[blackshoe]

[hv=d=n&s=sxxhxdxxxcakqjxxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♦-(1♥)-2♣-(P)

2♠-(P)-?[/hv]

[Cascade]

Looks like an auto 3♣.

[blackshoe]

Yeah, that's what my partner said. :-)

[uday]

You don't say if 2S showed "extras", I'll assume it did not.

 

3C seems insufficiently aggressive to me. Would be nice to be able to bid 3H, over which P will presumably bid 3N with a stopper, then bid 4C non-forcing.

 

Lacking that, it seems 3C will end the auction when game is laydown (but when P can't move) so often as to make it seem lame.

[Cascade]

You don't say if 2S showed "extras", I'll assume it did not.

 

3C seems insufficiently aggressive to me.  Would be nice to be able to bid 3H, over which P will presumably bid 3N with a stopper, then bid 4C non-forcing. 

 

Lacking that, it seems 3C will end the auction when game is laydown (but when P can't move) so often as to make it seem lame.

Given the opening post said "2/1"

 

I think either 2♣ was GF or 2♠ needs to show extras in either case we are in a force.

[Jlall]

3H stopper ask. Too strong for 3C.

[aguahombre]

If 2C was GF, or if 2S made it a game force, partner doesnt need for you to ask, in order to know whether he has a heart stop. 3C looks right to me.

[benlessard]

For me 3H would show half a stopper so im stuck into bidding 3C.

[the hog]

3H asking for a stopper for me.

[blackshoe]

I was the club holder. 2♣, as we play it, is not GF after an overcall (that may or may not be a good agreement, but it's the one we have). I thought 2♠ showed extras, my partner did not. As it happened, I bid 3♦, thinking she was 5-4, and she jumped to 5 on a balanced 14 count. It didn't make.

 

She thought I should have bid 3♣, which she would have passed. I thought she was "resulting". :)

[helene_t]

Most balanced minimums can bid either 2NT or 3♣ so I think 2♠ should show extras.

 

It is normal to play 2♣ as non-GF.

 

If we are not in a GF I bid 3♥, but I think we are so I just bid 3♣.

[uday]

2♠ should show extras

 

That probably isn't playable, unless you also play that

 

1D-1H-2C-P

2D

 

could be on 4 (and is the catch-all rebid for opener when he can't rebid 2N).

[peachy]

3C. Second choice 3H = asking for heart stop, but with this many clubs opener sometimes is void...oops.

 

2C is not gameforcing to anybody I know, but it does promise another bid (or another chance for opener to bid).

2S logically cannot show extras; if it does, we are completely screwed any time the opponents overcall and opener has a minimum hand with no club support and no extra length in diamonds.

[gnasher]

2♠ should show extras

 

That probably isn't playable, unless you also play that

 

1D-1H-2C-P

2D

 

could be on 4 (and is the catch-all rebid for opener when he can't rebid 2N).

A better approach is to rebid 2NT on all weak notrumps that don't have five diamonds or club support. Then 2♦ can promise five, 2♠ can promise shape and extras, and 3♣ can promise real support. The downside is that sometime we reach 2NT without a heart stop, but when they haven't raised hearts that's a fairly rare occurrence.

 

In any case, I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count. If responder doesn't have six clubs, doesn't have enough for game, and doesn't have a heart stop, what is he supposed to bid? Whatever he does, I don't see why that should be better than being in 2NT from opener's side.

[uday]

I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count

 

without a stop in the enemy suit, opener would like to avoid the 2N rebid.

[aguahombre]

In any case, I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count.  If responder doesn't have six clubs, doesn't have enough for game, and doesn't have a heart stop, what is he supposed to bid?  Whatever he does, I don't see why that should be better than being in 2NT from opener's side.

Right. And when opener introduces a suit (spades) that responder is unlikely to have if 2C was not game forcing (no neg double), his intent must be to create a game force at that point.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=n&s=sxxhxdxxxcakqjxxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

1♦-(1♥)-2♣-(P)

2♠-(P)-?[/hv]

possible choices look to be 3♥, 5♣, 6♣,3♦. Assuming 2♠ shows xtras I think 6♣ is not unreasonable

[pooltuna]

I was the club holder. 2♣, as we play it, is not GF after an overcall (that may or may not be a good agreement, but it's the one we have). I thought 2♠ showed extras, my partner did not. As it happened, I bid 3♦, thinking she was 5-4, and she jumped to 5 on a balanced 14 count. It didn't make.

 

She thought I should have bid 3♣, which she would have passed. I thought she was "resulting". :)

IMO you're right, she was resulting

[gnasher]

I don't see how it helps to be able to rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count

 

without a stop in the enemy suit, opener would like to avoid the 2N rebid.

No doubt he would, but that doesn't mean that rebidding 2♠ will get us to a better final contract.

 

Can you show me a pair of hands where opener is 4342 without a heart stop, and you'd get to the right contract after a systemic 2♠ rebid, but I'd get to the wrong contract after a systemic 2NT rebid? I'm not saying that such hands don't exist, but I think you'll find them quite hard to construct.

[uday]

I think I'm hearing gnasher say that 2N is the correct rebid on balanced hands, with or without a stop in the enemy suit?

 

if so, that isnt a standard treatment. For most people:

 

2N = stopper in enemy suit, balanced min

2D = natural ( 5+ D )

2S = natural ( 4+ S )

2H = GF, ambiguous re. hand type

 

 

( Gnasher: my issue w/a *natural* 2N bid is that P will think it shows a stopper and raise to 3N off the H suit when another contract might lead to a plus score. Obviously, a conventional 2N or , for that matter, 2D would be a fine ans for some hand types )

[655321]

I have played (and quite like) that Opener's cue bid below 2NT does not promise strength. Playing that style, opener would rebid 2♥ with a stopperless 4342 13 count.

[gnasher]

I think I'm hearing gnasher say that 2N is the correct rebid on balanced hands, with or without a stop in the enemy suit?

I'm not saying that rebidding 2NT on all weak notrumps is standard. Nor am I saying that you should bid 2NT if your agreements say that you should bid 2♠.

 

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or (b) agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

 

I'm also saying that I don't see much benefit to agreeing that you can rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count, and I'd be interested to see some pairs of hands where having that agreement helps you to get to the right contract.

[rd6789]

 

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or (:unsure: agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

 

 

why not bid 3♣ if you are balanced and haven't got a stop in opps suit - after all partner forced you to bid and must be able to cope with that hand - with nothing in their suit maybe you have to play in club partial as your only making option even with 25+ if they have 5 hearts to cash. [not on this hand obviously]

[ArtK78]

3H stopper ask. Too strong for 3C.

There is nothing more to add, except that 3♣ is not forcing in most 2/1 partnerships on this auction.

[Finch]

I think I'm hearing gnasher say that 2N is the correct rebid on balanced hands, with or without a stop in the enemy suit?

I'm not saying that rebidding 2NT on all weak notrumps is standard. Nor am I saying that you should bid 2NT if your agreements say that you should bid 2♠.

 

What I am saying is that it is better to agree to bid 2NT on all weak notrumps than either (a) agreeing to rebid 2♠ on a balanced hand or (:P agreeing to rebid 2♦ with only four cards.

 

I'm also saying that I don't see much benefit to agreeing that you can rebid 2♠ on a 4342 13-count, and I'd be interested to see some pairs of hands where having that agreement helps you to get to the right contract.

I'd go further than gnasher.

 

I would say that a lot of people rebid 2NT on all weak NTs here, with or without a heart stop, to the extent that although this may not be 'standard' it is sufficiently common - at least round here - to make no meaning of 2NT 'standard'

 

I agree that I can't see how bidding 2S on some minimum 4-4 is going to help matters.