3 club? 2 shots at being correct

[dickiegera]

I opened 2S in the first seat. LHO overcalled 2NT. RHO took 30 seconds to bid 3C. LHO now bids 3NT. All pass. Both LHO and RHO are seasoned players, however this was their first time together as partners. They have puppet stayman marked on their cards but their were no alerts.

RHO said before the opening that he was not sure if 2NT showed 20pts or if it was unusual NT.

LHO held Axx,xxx,Jxxx,xxx. LHO had the normal 16pt NT.

 

I believe that if LHO believed what he said " I am not sure if partner has 20pts or is asking for the minors so I bid 3C to cover both possibilities" then LHO is taking 2 shots at being correct.

 

Opinions please.

[bluejak]

Why shouldn't he?

[awm]

Well, if you are not sure what partner's bid means, you're allowed to make a call that caters to more than one possibility. This is just good tactics; there's not any legal issue to speak of.

 

Of course, there may be some issues with disclosure if one of the possibilities is alertable, and there may also be cases where partner's alert or failure to alert helps sort out a misunderstanding and should not be allowed to do so, but I don't see any such problems on this particular hand.

[blackshoe]

If 2NT were unusual in this auction, it would require an alert. In that case, 3♣, being basically natural (expecting overcaller to have 5+ clubs) would not require an alert. If 2NT is natural, it doesn't require an alert. If 3♣ is Puppet Stayman, it requires an alert. If normal Stayman, it does not.

 

If you're not sure if your partner's call requires an alert, you should alert. So, if advancer was unsure what 2NT meant, he should have alerted. That he didn't is MI. That advancer took 30 seconds to decide to bid 3♣ is UI. In either case, if you feel you were damaged, call the director. Without seeing all the hands, it's hard to say, but I pretty much agree with Adam and bluejak — I really don't see a problem here.

[barmar]

I'm having a hard time believing that RHO is a "seasoned player" in the ACBL, unless seasoned means he's so old he's starting to lose his faculties. I've never heard of anyone here who plays 2NT in this auction as showing anything much different from a hand that would overcall 1NT over 1♠, with responses basically the same except one level higher. I suppose that if you play 1NT-2♣ as normal Stayman and 1NT-[3CL] as puppet there's room for confusion about whether 3♣ in the original auction is normal or puppet. But even that seems pretty strange; while players often open NT with a 5-card major, they rarely overcall it.

 

Unusual would be extremely unusual, and only a real amateur would think it's a possibility.

 

Did they actually make 3NT with 21 HCP and balanced hands?

[Cascade]

Why shouldn't he?

Strange that the arguments are often different if we are considering the possibility of a psychic bid.

[bluejak]

I'm having a hard time believing that RHO is a "seasoned player" in the ACBL, unless seasoned means he's so old he's starting to lose his faculties.  I've never heard of anyone here who plays 2NT in this auction as showing anything much different from a hand that would overcall 1NT over 1♠, with responses basically the same except one level higher.  I suppose that if you play 1NT-2♣ as normal Stayman and 1NT-[3CL] as puppet there's room for confusion about whether 3♣ in the original auction is normal or puppet.  But even that seems pretty strange; while players often open NT with a 5-card major, they rarely overcall it.

 

Unusual would be extremely unusual, and only a real amateur would think it's a possibility.

 

Did they actually make 3NT with 21 HCP and balanced hands?

In England, when weak twos were fairly new, quite a few people, possibly a majority, played 2NT as either takeout or for the minors. While natural has now become standard, that does not mean everyone plays it. Especially if you play in a club where some people do not play 2NT as natural, you might easily be unsure what partner's 2NT means if this is the first time it has come up and you have not discussed it. I think the idea that only a rank amateur would cosnider unusual as a possibility is unfair on some very good players. Good players know what is played generally in their club and guess what a strange partner means based on this.

 

Also in England, it is extremely rare for responses over 2NYT to mirror those over 1NT, and my North American experiences suggest the same.

 

Why shouldn't he?

Strange that the arguments are often different if we are considering the possibility of a psychic bid.

I don't see the relevance, since we aren't.

[dickiegera]

Result was 3NT down 2.

Good score for us.

Thank you.